Say it aint so! Please!

#202
#202
TGVol said:
That's irrelevant. A lot of people including their own players have over they years had problems with successful coaches like Saban, Belichick, Urban Meyer, Spurrier, Bobby Knight, etc.
You don't have to be liked to be successful - actually if you are too well liked it probably means you are not pushing the players hard enough.
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The players didn't hate Dooley because he was coaching to hard. Terrible comparison.
 
#205
#205
I haven't read any replies yet so I'm sorry if I repeat a point made already..

Ask yourself this.. Are we significantly better right now than at this point last year? Dooley's teams always came out looking very good (like beating NC State) then digressed as the season went on. That tells you everything you need to know about this debate.
 
#207
#207
TGVol said:
That's irrelevant. A lot of people including their own players have over they years had problems with successful coaches like Saban, Belichick, Urban Meyer, Spurrier, Bobby Knight, etc.
You don't have to be liked to be successful - actually if you are too well liked it probably means you are not pushing the players hard enough.
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It is relevant in how he may be perceived if he fails. I won't look back at Butch and loathe every memory of him being here like I do with Dooley. I will think he is a good man that did his best and it didn't work out. And, btw, Dooley isn't hated because he pushed the players too hard. He is hated because he was a raging @$$hole that continually threw his players under the bus. There's a big difference. Butch is closer to being in the category that you spoke of (see recent defectors Hendrix, Helm, and Scott).
 
#208
#208
ReaderVol said:
What's not factual?
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So excuse him choking the Vandy game because they had a decent year by Vandy standards?
Excuse him choking the Florida game last year?
Excuse him for choking away the Oklahoma game?

The flops are piling up.
 
#209
#209
Wylo said:
So excuse him choking the Vandy game because they had a decent year by Vandy standards?
Excuse him choking the Florida game last year?
Excuse him for choking away the Oklahoma game?

The flops are piling up.
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LOL silly, silly boy.
When one can't refute facts change it up huh.
 
#210
#210
ReaderVol said:
The players didn't hate Dooley because he was coaching to hard. Terrible comparison.
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Most of the players did not hate Dooley at all - same as everywhere else - most don't hate whichever coaches they are playing for.
 
#211
#211
TGVol said:
Most of the players did not hate Dooley at all - same as everywhere else - most don't hate whichever coaches they are playing for.
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There are articles and interviews where multiple players bash the hell out of him. I've never seen that about any other UT coach.
 
#212
#212
ReaderVol said:
There are articles and interviews where multiple players bash the hell out of him. I've never seen that about any other UT coach.
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Then you need to get further educated on this subject.
Most of that basing was from former UT players who did not play for Dooley - who were frustrated by all the losing just like most other average fans. However reaction of Dooley own players after he was fired was supportive of him and fairly typical of any other coach in this situation. For example here is the quote from Jacques Smith:

"Dooley's a great guy. He's put this program to where we need to be to be in a path for success. It just didn't happen this year. I believe if he had another year, he could have made it happen, but that's just my opinion."

And here is the full article.
Tennessee Vols players react to Derek Dooley's dismissal as head football coach | Times Free Press

If you need more proof about what his players thought here are some quotes from twitter after the firing:

Current, former Vols react to Derek Dooley's firing - GoVolsXtra Story
 
#213
#213
Stoked said:
How many top 5 recruiting classes did Dooley have? Butch got out coached in the 2nd half of the OU game for sure, but people jumping ship on him after that are ridiculous.
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Best I can tell, according to Rivals, Dooley had classes ranked 9th, 13th and 17th in his three years. Butch has classes ranked 21st, 5th and 5th. So Dooley's average class was ranked 13th, Butch's average class is ranked 10th. Butch certainly has two stout classes, but the difference isn't this crazy overwhelming number many are making it out to be.

So to recap, Butch and Dooley inherited similar NFL talent, pending the next NFL draft, Butch appears to have actually inherited slightly more NFL talent than Dooley. And in recruiting, Dooley's classes were 13th over his time, Butch is 10th.

When you throw in both are 13-14 at this stage, I'm not following the crowd that claims UT is so much drastically better off under Butch than Dooley. And if UT loses to UF again in two weeks, there will be fewer and fewer in this "we're better off" camp.
 
#214
#214
DCompagnucci said:
Best I can tell, according to Rivals, Dooley had classes ranked 9th, 13th and 17th in his three years. Butch has classes ranked 21st, 5th and 5th. So Dooley's average class was ranked 13th, Butch's average class is ranked 10th. Butch certainly has two stout classes, but the difference isn't this crazy overwhelming number many are making it out to be.

So to recap, Butch and Dooley inherited similar NFL talent, pending the next NFL draft, Butch appears to have actually inherited slightly more NFL talent than Dooley. And in recruiting, Dooley's classes were 13th over his time, Butch is 10th.

When you throw in both are 13-14 at this stage, I'm not following the crowd that claims UT is so much drastically better off under Butch than Dooley. And if UT loses to UF again in two weeks, there will be fewer and fewer in this "we're better off" camp.
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Consider only the years that they had full offseasons and the disparity grows. Both were thrown in late in the cycle with classes someone else recruited for their first year.
 
#218
#218
emzeeee said:
Consider only the years that they had full offseasons and the disparity grows. Both were thrown in late in the cycle with classes someone else recruited for their first year.
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Can't you go both ways with that? Dooley pulled off a 9th place recruiting class in his first year following the Kiffin departure fiasco. That's pretty amazing in hindsight. Jones' first "partial class" was 21st. So while Butch has certainly done a super job with consecutive 5th place classes, he didn't do as good as Dooley bringing in that first class despite all the drama.

The differences between Dooley and Butch Jones are not as overwhelming as many try and spin, that's all many UT fans are saying.
 
#219
#219
DCompagnucci said:
Can't you go both ways with that? Dooley pulled off a 9th place recruiting class in his first year following the Kiffin departure fiasco. That's pretty amazing in hindsight. Jones' first "partial class" was 21st. So while Butch has certainly done a super job with consecutive 5th place classes, he didn't do as good as Dooley bringing in that first class despite all the drama.

The differences between Dooley and Butch Jones are not as overwhelming as many try and spin, that's all many UT fans are saying.
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And Kiffin had built a nice class already with kids who didn't have time to jump ship. UT had just gone to a bowl game. CBJ came in after Dooley and two 5-7 seasons. UT wasn't in nearly as deep of a hole when Dooley came in as CBJ.
 
#221
#221
TGVol said:
Nonsense. CBJ did not have to deal with NCAA investigations because Dooley left him a much cleaner program than he inherited from Kiffin.
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Thank god for shower discipline.

But seriously? Alumni relationships, academics (we were about to lose scholarships due to our ****ty APR and rising academic standards), depleted roster, not letting coaches do their job because he knew better (running off coaches), depleted fan support (season ticket sales), neglected recruiting relationships.

Everything was spiraling downward.
 
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#222
#222
emzeeee said:
And Kiffin had built a nice class already with kids who didn't have time to jump ship. UT had just gone to a bowl game. CBJ came in after Dooley and two 5-7 seasons. UT wasn't in nearly as deep of a hole when Dooley came in as CBJ.
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Surely you give Dooley some credit for holding that first class together, especially considering the acrimony at the time surrounding Kiffin's departure. We have old threads on it Im sure, Dooley correctly received praise far and wide for holding on to and building that first class.

Here's the deal, they're both 13-14. The pro-Butch crowd says "yeah, but Butch inherited way less NFL talent and recruits way better." But the facts, in terms of NFL draft picks and recruiting rankings don't adequately support that.
 
#223
#223
emzeeee said:
Everything was spiraling downward.
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Not true. There was buzz and excitement early on during Dooley's 3rd year - very similar to this year. Didn't we beat a good and even ranked NC state team to open the season which set the stage for the UF game which was a huge deal - similar atmosphere and expectations to this year's OU game. Then the wheels fell off in the 4th quarter (we still had the lead midway through the 3rd quarter). Even after that game the season was not over - thanks to Sal's defense we lost a bunch of close high scoring shootouts on the road vs highly ranked teams that year (UGA, SCjr, Miss State).
 
#224
#224
TGVol said:
Not true. There was buzz and excitement early on during Dooley's 3rd year - very similar to this year. Didn't we beat a good and even ranked NC state team to open the season which set the stage for the UF game which was a huge deal - similar atmosphere and expectations to this year's OU game. Then the wheels fell off in the 4th quarter (we still had the lead midway through the 3rd quarter). Even after that game the season was not over - thanks to Sal's defense we lost a bunch of close high scoring shootouts on the road vs highly ranked teams that year (UGA, SCjr, Miss State).
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NC State was not ranked.
 
#225
#225
Wylo said:
NC State was not ranked.
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Ok - I take your word for it and apologize for that mistake. Still it does not change the rest of the facts or the point I was trying to make which is that there was excitement and hope/hype early on that year, similar to this year. Hopefully more of the hype will materialize this year although the feeling after the OU game is somewhat similar to how I remember people felt after that UF loss. But we do have a much better defense this year, and the schedule is not nearly as tough in terms of highly ranked team we are scheduled to play.
 
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