Sankey sends letter to NCAA on behalf of UT

#76

butchna

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#76
That bolded part literally made no sense. Fetal position in the shower? I'm the one telling the NCAA to [expletive deleted].

"CASH PAYMENTS!" in the future (and the present, for that matter, Bama is off to a flying start) will take the form of NIL 'likeness contracts', whereby Good Old Bama Boy Motors engages Mr. Blue Chip as their official spokesperson for 2024, instead of the owner of Good Old Bama Boy Motors, Bubba McRichGump, handing cash to Buford McBagMan to give to the recruit. May have to gross it up a bit to take care of income taxes to Mr. Blue Chip, but fundamentally there is no difference.

So...I guess if the pretense really matters to you, then I see a difference. Otherwise? Not so much, except for the income inclusion.
Whining about what Alabama’s allowed to do under the NIL when the Mays Brothers are the face of Krystal’s and a QB who may never see the field is marketing his own brand = fetal position.
 
#77

VolInNW

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#77
Whining about what Alabama’s allowed to do under the NIL when the Mays Brothers are the face of Krystal’s and a QB who may never see the field is marketing his own brand = fetal position.
Whining? LOL. The opposite, I think we should jump in with both feet, and make EVERY single one of our players a spokesperson for some booster's business. Not sure why you seem determined that we disagree on that point.

What I am saying....once more, slowly this time, .......is that it is silly for us to continue this self inflicted bleeding when the rules have changed completely since January. If the NCAA wants to make an issue of us dismissing the investigation and moving on, let's take it up in court, appeal if necessary, and let Brett Kavanaugh write the majority opinion he SOOOO wants to write essentially eviscerating the NCAA of any authority.

But, if you want to go ahead and impose significant penalties, and keep this investigation cranking along, slowly finishing off the kill of this program, then we do fundamentally disagree.

NIL, however?? Laissez the bon temps rouller!
 
#78

butchna

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#78
Whining? LOL. The opposite, I think we should jump in with both feet, and make EVERY single one of our players a spokesperson for some booster's business. Not sure why you seem determined that we disagree on that point.

What I am saying....once more, slowly this time, .......is that it is silly for us to continue this self inflicted bleeding when the rules have changed completely since January. If the NCAA wants to make an issue of us dismissing the investigation and moving on, let's take it up in court, appeal if necessary, and let Brett Kavanaugh write the majority opinion he SOOOO wants to write essentially eviscerating the NCAA of any authority.

But, if you want to go ahead and impose significant penalties, and keep this investigation cranking along, slowly finishing off the kill of this program, then we do fundamentally disagree.

NIL, however?? Laissez the bon temps rouller!
Can’t seem to get you to grasp that THE RULES HAVEN’T CHANGED as concerning coaches DIRECTLY paying players and dressing up what our coaches were caught doing as revisionist NIL opportunities doesn’t fly. Saban has always directly paid players and never had a whistleblower blow it up…so totally irrelevant point. Say it slow or say it fast doesn’t matter if your brain isn’t making the distinction. No grown up is going to tell the NCAA to “shove it bruh! This is legal nows!” Cuz it ain’t. Wrapping up the investigation isn’t an arguing point for me, but the NCAA isn’t obligated to meet our timeline and prolly won’t. Tho we’ve agonized over rulings the past few seasons (Solomon and Mays) and they didn’t overly draw them out imo.
 
#79

VolInNW

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#79
Can’t seem to get you to grasp that THE RULES HAVEN’T CHANGED as concerning coaches DIRECTLY paying players and dressing up what our coaches were caught doing as revisionist NIL opportunities doesn’t fly. Saban has always directly paid players and never had a whistleblower blow it up…so totally irrelevant point. Say it slow or say it fast doesn’t matter if your brain isn’t making the distinction. No grown up is going to tell the NCAA to “shove it bruh! This is legal nows!” Cuz it ain’t. Wrapping up the investigation isn’t an arguing point for me, but the NCAA isn’t obligated to meet our timeline and prolly won’t. Tho we’ve agonized over rulings the past few seasons (Solomon and Mays) and they didn’t overly draw them out imo.
You do seem to like personal attacks, but I will refrain from doing so.

I'm not dressing up anything, we did what we did. What I am saying is this is equivalent to an active MJ possession case in a state in process when MJ was legalized in that state. Was it a crime when it occurred? Sure. But practically speaking, those cases were dropped, based on the landscape completely shifting during the process.

The NCAA has ZERO leverage here. They are one case away from a SCOTUS ruling removing any remaining authority they have. They are not going to push ANYTHING right now. I say take advantage of that situation. In a respectful, professional announcement (since that seems to be important to you), indicate that we have investigated the infractions, that everyone involved has been terminated or has left the university, we declined a bowl game in 2020, and we have instituted processes to make sure that there is appropriate oversight of NIL licenses and other payments to players, and move on.

As for coaches paying players.....coaches have NEVER paid players, they may have passed along booster money, but aside from some minor gifts for food, etc, the substantial infraction payments involve booster money to recruits or students. And that will not stop, it will simply put on a NIL veneer and grow even larger.
 
#80

MaxVolnGA

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#80
This really is not that hard to understand.
Go to a hippy-weed legal state and get caught buying or selling said weed on a street corner...it’s still against the law because it’s not state sanctioned and the state is not getting their cut.
Take money from a coach, anyone’s money, as a student athlete and you will be breaking the rules. Sign a contract and get paid because of your likeness is not breaking the rules. The gov. will get their tax money and everyone is happy.
Why some can’t see the difference is very confusing.
 
#81

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#81
That bolded part literally made no sense. Fetal position in the shower? I'm the one telling the NCAA to [expletive deleted].

"CASH PAYMENTS!" in the future (and the present, for that matter, Bama is off to a flying start) will take the form of NIL 'likeness contracts', whereby Good Old Bama Boy Motors engages Mr. Blue Chip as their official spokesperson for 2024, instead of the owner of Good Old Bama Boy Motors, Bubba McRichGump, handing cash to Buford McBagMan to give to the recruit. May have to gross it up a bit to take care of income taxes to Mr. Blue Chip, but fundamentally there is no difference.

So...I guess if the pretense really matters to you, then I see a difference. Otherwise? Not so much, except for the income inclusion.
I would say a good portion of some of the stuff I have seen these players do isn't selling NIL rights but just contracts for service.

The ability of the NCAA to enforce compensation in any form is over. If a coach or school wanted to pay a player to sign (on signing day) via contract, not sure what the NCAA could do at this point.

Pay for play is here, its simply over.
 
#82

ptcarter

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#82
That’s why I think it was key that Sankey is pressing them for a quick resolution.
Or maybe (if conspiracy theories about Sankey hold true) he just wants it quick so we can get hammered while there is still time. Last guy getting killed on the day the war ended kind of thing.
 
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#83

VFL-82-JP

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#83
"CASH PAYMENTS!" in the future (and the present, for that matter, Bama is off to a flying start) will take the form of NIL 'likeness contracts', whereby Good Old Bama Boy Motors engages Mr. Blue Chip as their official spokesperson for 2024, instead of the owner of Good Old Bama Boy Motors, Bubba McRichGump, handing cash to Buford McBagMan to give to the recruit. May have to gross it up a bit to take care of income taxes to Mr. Blue Chip, but fundamentally there is no difference.

So...I guess if the pretense really matters to you, then I see a difference. Otherwise? Not so much, except for the income inclusion.
I agree with this. And the key point of it all is, there's nothing stopping local businessmen (boosters by another name) from offering NIL contracts to kids on a _conditional_ basis. That condition being, if you're here in Tuscaloosa ... or Knoxville ... or Gainesville. "Hey, kid, if you're here in Clemson, South Carolina come spring training camp, I'll pay you $15,000 a year so I can advertise using your name and image and likeness! And I got a few other buddies who will offer you very similar deals. Hope you come to Clemson, we can do some business!"

Which means, it's a modern-day, NIL-sanctioned version of the bag man luring players to a certain school.
 
#84

butchna

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#84
You do seem to like personal attacks, but I will refrain from doing so.

I'm not dressing up anything, we did what we did. What I am saying is this is equivalent to an active MJ possession case in a state in process when MJ was legalized in that state. Was it a crime when it occurred? Sure. But practically speaking, those cases were dropped, based on the landscape completely shifting during the process.

The NCAA has ZERO leverage here. They are one case away from a SCOTUS ruling removing any remaining authority they have. They are not going to push ANYTHING right now. I say take advantage of that situation. In a respectful, professional announcement (since that seems to be important to you), indicate that we have investigated the infractions, that everyone involved has been terminated or has left the university, we declined a bowl game in 2020, and we have instituted processes to make sure that there is appropriate oversight of NIL licenses and other payments to players, and move on.

As for coaches paying players.....coaches have NEVER paid players, they may have passed along booster money, but aside from some minor gifts for food, etc, the substantial infraction payments involve booster money to recruits or students. And that will not stop, it will simply put on a NIL veneer and grow even larger.
“I’ll slow it down for you” didn’t sound complementary but as long as it wasn’t personal. 😉

We don’t know the full details but our coaches DID pay players and that wasn’t legal then and it’s not presently. Benefit of the doubt that Pruitt and Neids would have been savvy enough to filter it through a Pals marketing agreement if this was available a year ago…but wasn’t. So your marijuana analogy falls inept. Whether the money originates from boosters or Best Buy is immaterial. Our coaches were whistled on delivering money directly to student athletes and we can’t simply say “shove it”. Real life doesn’t work that way.
 
#85

VolInNW

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#85
“I’ll slow it down for you” didn’t sound complementary but as long as it wasn’t personal. 😉

We don’t know the full details but our coaches DID pay players and that wasn’t legal then and it’s not presently. Benefit of the doubt that Pruitt and Neids would have been savvy enough to filter it through a Pals marketing agreement if this was available a year ago…but wasn’t. So your marijuana analogy falls inept. Whether the money originates from boosters or Best Buy is immaterial. Our coaches were whistled on delivering money directly to student athletes and we can’t simply say “shove it”. Real life doesn’t work that way.
"I’ll slow it down for you” didn’t sound complementary" I can see where you got that. My bad, I always try to stay positive.....except with uga fans! :)

Now, the bolded part made me literally lol. We BOTH know that phrase is an inherent oxymoron.

If the flow of the money from coach to player really bugs you, then fine. Make a BIG deal of the fact that Slingblade was terminated for cause. Announce that all current coaches will undergo training on the new rules and any coach which violates same will be immediately terminated for cause. Emphasize the voluntary bowl game declination last year. But take advantage of the current environment and leave it to the NCAA whether they push the issue or not. My bet is they want NO part of a court case right now.
 
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#86

butchna

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#86
"I’ll slow it down for you” didn’t sound complementary" I can see where you got that. My bad, I always try to stay positive.....except with uga fans! :)

Now, the bolded part made me literally lol. We BOTH know that phrase is an inherent oxymoron.

If the flow of the money from coach to player really bugs you, then fine. Make a BIG deal of the fact that Slingblade was terminated for cause. Announce that all current coaches will undergo training on the new rules and any coach which violates same will be immediately terminated for cause. Emphasize the voluntary bowl game declination last year. But take advantage of the current environment and leave it to the NCAA whether they push the issue or not. My bet is they want NO part of a court case right now.
Coaches paying players has never vexed me one iota…it was a winning way of doing business. Unless you got caught. Our guys got caught and all of the resultant corrections we made will surely be mentioned in our pitch. Our ANNOUNCED reason for bowing out of the bowl game was positive Covid tests. So I doubt that’s accepted. Not a legal mind myself but what would be the grounds for taking them to court?
 
#87

WiseOlVol

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#87
I don't know why "Screw Sankey" when he's trying to help us in this instance.

On top of that, what you are describing is basically pleading not guilty right after you give a multi-page signed and notarized confession to the police. Sounds great but it's pure nonsense.
Not exactly. What we're saying is it's taken too long to constitute due process and, failing such, we won't be bound by any findings/holdings hereafter.
 
#88

WiseOlVol

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#88
The Supreme Court's NIL ruling = a statement that it was illegal to bar it ALL ALONG. Not just from July 2021, but back to 1787.

Not a dime's worth of difference between NIL and paying players to play for you.
 
#89

butchna

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#89
The Supreme Court's NIL ruling = a statement that it was illegal to bar it ALL ALONG. Not just from July 2021, but back to 1787.

Not a dime's worth of difference between NIL and paying players to play for you.
Except the coaches being directly involved.
 
#91

butchna

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#91
Coaches = Boosters. Boosters pay NIL.
You’re saying coaches are the same as boosters? Somebody’s been feeding you some delusion! Now boosters may own companies that extend marketing agreements with athletes…but THEY have to make that extra step. A coach gets caught handing out cash filled envelopes and they’re in the same boat as Pruitt. That rule hasn’t changed.
 
#92

VolInNW

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#92
You’re saying coaches are the same as boosters? Somebody’s been feeding you some delusion! Now boosters may own companies that extend marketing agreements with athletes…but THEY have to make that extra step. A coach gets caught handing out cash filled envelopes and they’re in the same boat as Pruitt. That rule hasn’t changed.
I think you are overly wedded to form over substance. And, given the recent developments, the NCAA is going ot be hard pressed to really push such an argument. You're correct that coaches can't directly pay players, and in fact as I understand it the AD can't be involved in setting up the NIL deals. That said, is it just an AMAZING coincidence that Saban and his QB are both CAA clients?

It's like campaign finance laws. Campaigns cannot coordinate ads with outside advocacy groups. But, amazingly, the messages are always well-meshed, seemingly 'coordinated'. I'm certain the campaigns follow the form of the law, but the end result is exactly the 'evil' the law seeks to stop.

Announce this is over, we have fired the coaches involved, placed controls to ensure we comply with NIL rules, and move the F on! Put the ball in the NCAAs court if they want to push it. My bet is they will not.
 
#93

butchna

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#93
I think you are overly wedded to form over substance. And, given the recent developments, the NCAA is going ot be hard pressed to really push such an argument. You're correct that coaches can't directly pay players, and in fact as I understand it the AD can't be involved in setting up the NIL deals. That said, is it just an AMAZING coincidence that Saban and his QB are both CAA clients?

It's like campaign finance laws. Campaigns cannot coordinate ads with outside advocacy groups. But, amazingly, the messages are always well-meshed, seemingly 'coordinated'. I'm certain the campaigns follow the form of the law, but the end result is exactly the 'evil' the law seeks to stop.

Announce this is over, we have fired the coaches involved, placed controls to ensure we comply with NIL rules, and move the F on! Put the ball in the NCAAs court if they want to push it. My bet is they will not.
Well it’s like Michael Scott screaming “I declare bankruptcy!” and expecting the problems to go away. Our coaches were caught doing something that WAS and STILL IS illegal. If you get caught? You can’t just state that you’ve done enough and it’s over. That’s not within our purview.
 
#94

VolInNW

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#94
Well it’s like Michael Scott screaming “I declare bankruptcy!” and expecting the problems to go away. Our coaches were caught doing something that WAS and STILL IS illegal. If you get caught? You can’t just state that you’ve done enough and it’s over. That’s not within our purview.
But, my Vol brother, someone has to TELL you its not enough. You don't, in this circumstance, tell YOURSELF it's not enough. Make the NCAA assert that our actions are not enough. They won't, IMHO. Is it a lucky break, this timing? Sure. But goodness knows we have had enough &^%$ luck the last 15 years, we deserve a lucky break.
 
#95

SayUWantAreVOLution

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#95
But, my Vol brother, someone has to TELL you its not enough. You don't, in this circumstance, tell YOURSELF it's not enough. Make the NCAA assert that our actions are not enough. They won't, IMHO. Is it a lucky break, this timing? Sure. But goodness knows we have had enough &^%$ luck the last 15 years, we deserve a lucky break.
How in the short sighted logic do you perceive that as a good thing? If the NCAA is toothless and won't punish us for having clearly broken the rules, they'll not punish anyone else who breaks the rules and pays players.

You see this as good for college football?

This reminds me of a story I heard about a kid who was shot over a pair of shoes he'd just looted from a store. His family wanted to know where the police were to protect him........
 
#96

butchna

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#96
But, my Vol brother, someone has to TELL you its not enough. You don't, in this circumstance, tell YOURSELF it's not enough. Make the NCAA assert that our actions are not enough. They won't, IMHO. Is it a lucky break, this timing? Sure. But goodness knows we have had enough &^%$ luck the last 15 years, we deserve a lucky break.
They will or they won’t assert it. After we submit our report. Doubt we plead the “deserve” part…at least in that language. It’s not as simple as my understanding of what you’re saying. They either accept what we propose or they don’t.
 
#97

secking

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#97
I think you are overly wedded to form over substance. And, given the recent developments, the NCAA is going ot be hard pressed to really push such an argument. You're correct that coaches can't directly pay players, and in fact as I understand it the AD can't be involved in setting up the NIL deals. That said, is it just an AMAZING coincidence that Saban and his QB are both CAA clients?

It's like campaign finance laws. Campaigns cannot coordinate ads with outside advocacy groups. But, amazingly, the messages are always well-meshed, seemingly 'coordinated'. I'm certain the campaigns follow the form of the law, but the end result is exactly the 'evil' the law seeks to stop.

Announce this is over, we have fired the coaches involved, placed controls to ensure we comply with NIL rules, and move the F on! Put the ball in the NCAAs court if they want to push it. My bet is they will not.
There is no recent development that states coaches can pay players. It seems you keep glossing over that point from Butchna. If the current law was active last year at this time, Pruitt would still be breaking NCAA laws.

I’m also not sure why you think TN would sue the NCAA? NCAA didn’t open this case, UT did. It’s like walking up to the teacher and telling her you cheated on the test and then you get mad that she gives you a failing grade. You are saying UT should tell the teacher to give a B+ and tell her to shove it.
 
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#98

CobbVol

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#98
There is no recent development that states coaches can pay players. It seems you keep glossing over that point from Butchna. If the current law was active last year at this time, Pruitt would still be breaking NCAA laws.

I’m also not sure why you think TN would sue the NCAA? NCAA didn’t open this case, UT did. It’s like walking up to the teacher and telling her you cheated on the test and then you get mad that she gives you a failing grade. You are saying UT should tell the teacher to give a B+ and tell her to shove it.
I think you are also glossing over what we have already implemented. What I see VolinNW saying is that for whatever Donde prematurely said we did last November, we have:

1) Fired/removed the AD
2) Fired/removed the HC
3) Fired/removed all the assistant coaches
4) Fired/removed the entire recruiting administrative staff

You throw in a few scholarship reduction because we are already there with the portal transfers and tell the NCAA that is our self-imposed punishment. If they do not accept this, that is when VolinNW is advocating sue the NCAA.
 
#99

SayUWantAreVOLution

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#99
I think you are also glossing over what we have already implemented. What I see VolinNW saying is that for whatever Donde prematurely said we did last November, we have:

1) Fired/removed the AD
2) Fired/removed the HC
3) Fired/removed all the assistant coaches
4) Fired/removed the entire recruiting administrative staff

You throw in a few scholarship reduction because we are already there with the portal transfers and tell the NCAA that is our self-imposed punishment. If they do not accept this, that is when VolinNW is advocating sue the NCAA.
Sue them for what?

That's like hitting someone and getting a DUI from it...... then going to rehab and paying the bill for the guy you hit...... then trying to sue the judge because he doesn't accept you did enough.

It's not your call on what's enough. It doesn't work like that.
 
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VolInNW

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How in the short sighted logic do you perceive that as a good thing? If the NCAA is toothless and won't punish us for having clearly broken the rules, they'll not punish anyone else who breaks the rules and pays players.

You see this as good for college football?

This reminds me of a story I heard about a kid who was shot over a pair of shoes he'd just looted from a store. His family wanted to know where the police were to protect him........
The NCAA has been gutted. Enforcement will be up to conferences now, or the schools themselves. I simply see no need to harm the program any more than it has been harmed already.

Sue them for what?

That's like hitting someone and getting a DUI from it...... then going to rehab and paying the bill for the guy you hit...... then trying to sue the judge because he doesn't accept you did enough.

It's not your call on what's enough. It doesn't work like that.
Admittedly I need to read the full Alston decision, but at this point I think the challenge would be based on similar Sherman grounds, that in light of the self imposed penalties and changes made by UT, the NCAA would be violating the Rule of Reason test in demanding additional penalties, especially in light of Alston where compensation to athletes was in play. There are clear differences from Alston, and the direct coach-player transfers (thanks, Slingblade, for THAT) is clearly an issue in the NCAA's favor, but I just don't think the NCAA wants another Circuit and potentially SCOTUS case examining its Sherman status.

Great discussion, everyone!
 

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