Roe vs Wade Overturned

#3,351
#3,351
evillawyer said:
Maybe, just maybe, those polls showing 70% approval of Roe were pretty damn accurate
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I don't know that the Roe landscape was that popular, but I'd bet a fair amount that if we had a national referendum to allow abortions through at least the first trimester, it would win.

The party system is boosting the extreme positions (ban all/allow all) on this.
 
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#3,352
#3,352
Velo Vol said:
I don't know that the Roe landscape was that popular, but I'd bet a fair amount that if we had a national referendum to allow abortions through at least the first trimester, it would win.

The party system is boosting the extreme positions on this.
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I agree. I don’t agree with abortion as a form of birth control, but I think that’s reasonable. There needs to be some middle ground, but we all know that won’t happen. Red states will give a 6 week or so ban. Blue states will allow to birth.
 
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#3,353
#3,353
Weezer said:
It is up to the individual states to protect those rights, not the federal government. I'm all for equality and equal rights, but I'm also for less federal government. People need to vote into state office those that best represent what they want to see. Our federal government was never meant to be as far-reaching as it has become. That's one of the main reasons everyone in it is so damn corrupt.
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I hate to agree with @Weezer. The culture of every state is different. What's acceptable and good for California isn't the same as what's acceptable and good for Tennessee. Additionally, until there is a legal definition of when life begins, I don't think this argument will change anyone's mind. Everyone has a different view of when life begins. Some say until fetal viability while proclaiming that crushing bald eagle eggs is murder or supporting double homicide charges for a pregnant women who get murdered or dies in an alcohol related incident. There's contradictions and hypocrisy abound on both sides of the argument.
 
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#3,354
#3,354
Velo Vol said:
I don't know that the Roe landscape was that popular, but I'd bet a fair amount that if we had a national referendum to allow abortions through at least the first trimester, it would win.

The party system is boosting the extreme positions (ban all/allow all) on this.
Click to expand...
Was just wondering, as I read another thread, how many cycles it’s going to take for Republicans to realize that much of their social/culture agenda seems just as radical to most normal people as the concept of birthing persons.
 
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#3,356
#3,356
RockyTop85 said:
Was just wondering, as I read another thread, how many cycles it’s going to take for Republicans to realize that much of their social/culture agenda seems just as radical to most normal people as the concept of birthing persons.
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S\
So what do you view as being reserved for the States?
 
#3,358
#3,358
SergeantVol said:
S\
So what do you view as being reserved for the States?
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That has nothing to do with what I said.

Being reserved to the states means states have to make a determination of whether or when to allow abortion. That’s where they’re significantly out of step with voters because they’re taking an extremist position almost across the board.
 
#3,359
#3,359
SergeantVol said:
I hate to agree with @Weezer. The culture of every state is different. What's acceptable and good for California isn't the same as what's acceptable and good for Tennessee. Additionally, until there is a legal definition of when life begins, I don't think this argument will change anyone's mind. Everyone has a different view of when life begins. Some say until fetal viability while proclaiming that crushing bald eagle eggs is murder or supporting double homicide charges for a pregnant women who get murdered or dies in an alcohol related incident. There's contradictions and hypocrisy abound on both sides of the argument.
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You love agreeing with me. No need to lie to people.
 
#3,360
#3,360
Velo Vol said:
I don't know that the Roe landscape was that popular, but I'd bet a fair amount that if we had a national referendum to allow abortions through at least the first trimester, it would win.

The party system is boosting the extreme positions (ban all/allow all) on this.
Click to expand...

It very well might win a national referendum but thankfully it will be decided by each state individually. If the support for abortion rights is that strong state legislatures will pass the appropriate laws or be voted out.
 
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#3,361
#3,361
RockyTop85 said:
That has nothing to do with what I said.

Being reserved to the states means states have to make a determination of whether or when to allow abortion. That’s where they’re significantly out of step with voters because they’re taking an extremist position almost across the board.
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But what if the majority of people in a state feel a certain way about an issue? For example, a deeply religious state in the deep south is extremely pro-life, should their opinion or voice not matter? That's why I asked the question. On what issues, do you believe the state should be the authority to create legislation? I know the constitutional answer but want to know yours.
 
#3,364
#3,364
SergeantVol said:
But what if the majority of people in a state feel a certain way about an issue? For example, a deeply religious state in the deep south is extremely pro-life, should their opinion or voice not matter? That's why I asked the question. On what issues, do you believe the state should be the authority to create legislation? I know the constitutional answer but want to know yours.
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Again, not even close to what I said. I actually said almost the exact opposite of what you’re trying to ascribe to me. Try reading it again, maybe?
 
#3,365
#3,365
RockyTop85 said:
Again, not even close to what I said. I actually said almost the exact opposite of what you’re trying to ascribe to me. Try reading it again, maybe?
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I am not trying to say you have a certain point of view or anything like that. I am just curious as to what your opinion and view point is. I know its rare today but I try to get a better sense of someone's viewpoint before I try to pile on them.
 
#3,366
#3,366
I am not sure I buy that this is a referendum that compels some conclusion at a meta level. It's one vote. Maybe, but let's see after 2 or 3 more.

More significant may be its indicator as a voter motivation issue for Dems in mid terms and 2024.
 
#3,367
#3,367
RockyTop85 said:
Was just wondering, as I read another thread, how many cycles it’s going to take for Republicans to realize that much of their social/culture agenda seems just as radical to most normal people as the concept of birthing persons.
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A unique thing about Kansas today is rarely do voters get a straight up choice on issues such as abortion or guns. They're shielded behind the barrier of representative democracy, and the most motivated partisans (single issue voters) usually call the shots.
 
#3,368
#3,368
lawgator1 said:
I am not sure I buy that this is a referendum that compels some conclusion at a meta level. It's one vote. Maybe, but let's see after 2 or 3 more.
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You don't believe at least 50% of Americans would vote to allow abortion until viability?
 
#3,369
#3,369
SergeantVol said:
I am not trying to say you have a certain point of view or anything like that. I am just curious as to what your opinion and view point is. I know its rare today but I try to get a better sense of someone's viewpoint before I try to pile on them.
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You said “should their opinion or voice not matter?” Which I believe does attribute to me the position that their voices or opinions should not matter.

All I said is that these near total abortion bans are an extremist position that are out of step with what the mainstream and a majority of voters actually believe, in the same way that absurd attempts at inclusivity, like “birthing persons,” are out of step with the mainstream.

As to your question, I don’t have an exhaustive list of powers that should be reserved to the states. I have said on here that I think the country would be better off if the federal government more closely resembled its pre-civil war scope. I would prefer that states serve as laboratories of democracy with broad discretion over their own laws within an expansive reading of the constitutional framework for civil liberties.
 
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#3,370
#3,370
Velo Vol said:
A unique thing about Kansas today is rarely do voters get a straight up choice on issues such as abortion or guns. They're shielded behind the barrier of representative democracy, and the most motivated partisans (single issue voters) usually call the shots.
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Mississippi of all places passed a referendum for medical marijuana last year or in 2020 and the state Supreme Court had to declare their entire referendum process (which is set out in their constitution) unconstitutional in order to stop it.

Put everything up to a referendum vote and the culture war would go away overnight, both sides would get slaughtered.
 
#3,371
#3,371
RockyTop85 said:
You said “should their opinion or voice not matter?” Which I believe does attribute to me the position that their voices or opinions should not matter.

All I said is that these near total abortion bans are an extremist position that are out of step with what the mainstream and a majority of voters actually believe, in the same way that absurd attempts at inclusivity, like “birthing persons,” are out of step with the mainstream.

As to your question, I don’t have an exhaustive list of powers that should be reserved to the states. I have said on here that I think the country would be better off if the federal government more closely resembled its pre-civil war scope. I would prefer that states serve as laboratories of democracy with broad discretion over their own laws within an expansive reading of the constitutional framework for civil liberties.
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While I don't agree with near total abortion bans, I think the majority of opinion information on the subject resides on polling a wide swath vs voters in different states. I have seen anything that indicates otherwise but would be open to read more if you have any additional sources. I also agree that the fringe elements in this country on both sides are attempting to have their will be executed. I think this is happening because they are the most vocal aspects of the voting base.

As far as states power, unless it is explicitly enumerated in the constitution it should be reserved as a states powers issue. If the vast majority of voters felt a certain way, their representatives should mirror that voting so an amendment can be made to the constitution. I also agree with your opinion on the federal government reverting back to it's pre-civil war scope. In my opinion, our government was set up to protect from the tyranny of the majority and to preserve the rights of the largest minoirty, the individual.
 
#3,372
#3,372
RockyTop85 said:
Mississippi of all places passed a referendum for medical marijuana last year or in 2020 and the state Supreme Court had to declare their entire referendum process (which is set out in their constitution) unconstitutional in order to stop it.

Put everything up to a referendum vote and the culture war would go away overnight, both sides would get slaughtered.
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Living in Mississippi, I can tell you that most of the politicians at the state level are out of touch with their constituency. Many politicians run unopposed whether is the general election or primary. Despite many Mississippians being very religious, their views have changed on Marijuana. Most people that I know are in favor of legalization but have accepted that it will take many years with the first hurdle being for medicinal use. Heck, it took until 2 years ago for us to have a lottery as it was viewed as sinful despite the number of non-native owned casinos on the coast.
 
#3,373
#3,373
SergeantVol said:
Living in Mississippi, I can tell you that most of the politicians at the state level are out of touch with their constituency. Many politicians run unopposed whether is the general election or primary. Despite many Mississippians being very religious, their views have changed on Marijuana. Most people that I know are in favor of legalization but have accepted that it will take many years with the first hurdle being for medicinal use. Heck, it took until 2 years ago for us to have a lottery as it was viewed as sinful despite the number of non-native owned casinos on the coast.
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I mean it passed like 65-35 or better, didn’t it?

I suspect that if you had a state-wide referendum on exceptions to MS’s abortion laws for life of the mother, rape, and incest those would pass, too. Although to be fair I don’t know whether they even had a complete ban set to go into effect.

What part of MS do you live in?
 
#3,375
#3,375
evillawyer said:
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The thing is, this is how it’s supposed to work. Let the states vote on it and decide. I obviously consider myself conservative but don’t agree with some of the right wing narrative. There needs to be exceptions for rape, mothers health, etc. I also don’t agree with the left wing side of an abortion as a form of birth control, or anything beyond the first trimester outside of the health of the mother. Needs to be some middle ground. Won’t be, but I think the majority of people could find some on an individual level.
 
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