Rick Barnes discussion [merged]

mr.checkerboards

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Ok, I've complained about his substitution patterns on here before too. I can concede that that doesn't sound like he managed it well. But I'm genuinely curious about the answer to my question about how differently you would view him we just had a bit more luck and won that game, even if we lose to the eventual national champ the next game?
Because I believe he cost the team that game, if the refs swallow the whistle he doesnt have the chance to sit Grant in OT. If Grant opens up OT you never know what mightve happened, but I would guess we play through him and at the time that wasnt a bad choice. So, in short I would view it different because it wouldve felt like he either won the game or had no impact vs feeling like he didnt give the team its best chance to win that game.
 

mr.checkerboards

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Speaking of it, I remember watching Pearl’s 2008 Sweet 16 team collapsing in the 2nd half against Louisville. I was so pissed off at the TV that day that I didn’t want to watch the rest of the Tournament.

I really felt that team should have made a Final Four run. Probably one of Pearl’s worst coaching jobs during his time here.
That was brutal for sure, im not going to argue that Pearl didnt have his moments of bad, but his best moments better than good for this program. At that point he had also won the reg season title outright twice, so there was something to believe in with him too.
 

kckempf

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So team rankings arent reasons or are you just looking to ignore them. How about watching the games and offense we run? Curls that end up in constant mid range jumpers. Post up after post up. Where are the pick and pops? Where are the flare screens? How about post game instead of whining about not having an inside presence say, we didnt shoot very well?
I'm thinking more like the details about Pearl's current offense that you like. This year it's marginally better than what we were able to do (111 vs 107 on KenPom). It's pretty much the same as last year's comparison (111 vs 108 on KenPom). Barnes and Pearl both had excellent offenses in 2019, when they each had stronger rosters (120 vs 122 on KenPom). It suggests to me that our offensive problems have a lot more to do with the offensive talents of the players than with the limitations of the system itself.

You can point out Gonzaga as a team that runs a stronger version of the flex offense. They are by far the best offensive team this year, but then again they're probably the most talented offensive team as well.
 

bleedingTNorange

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Who's ceiling Barnes? Its a S16. The point of pointing out his 30 year career is because of his age and style. The game has evolved and Barnes has not. I think we can both agree that the game has changed a lot since the 07 season. Pearls teams have changed with it, Barnes still wants to play 1990's basketball.
And yet he was able to produce the #1 team in the nation for about 5 weeks...pretty remarkable for a coach that the game has passed him by.

And again, he’s a no call away from an E8, so to act like it’s some definitive statement that S16 is his ceiling is pretty foolish.
 
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mr.checkerboards

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I'm thinking more like the details about Pearl's current offense that you like. This year it's marginally better than what we were able to do (111 vs 107 on KenPom). It's pretty much the same as last year's comparison (111 vs 108 on KenPom). Barnes and Pearl both had excellent offenses in 2019, when they each had stronger rosters (120 vs 122 on KenPom). It suggests to me that our offensive problems have a lot more to do with the offensive talents of the players than with the limitations of the system itself.

You can point out Gonzaga as a team that runs a stronger version of the flex offense. They are by far the best offensive team this year, but then again they're probably the most talented offensive team as well.
Im not worried about efficiency. Obviously better players equals better results. The original argument was about threes and how Barnes dislikes his teams taking them. I then pointed out a stat about how low ranked TN is. How many mid range jump shots do Barnes teams take? Its well documented that Barnes offense take a lot of them. Oregon is another team that is always solid on offense, through an equal number of games they have taken 600 threes to TN shooting 539. Auburn shot 751. UNCG, whos coach I think will get a better look somewhere soon shot 763.
 

bleedingTNorange

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I'm gonna be completely honest, I barely remember that overtime. I think the pain has repressed that memory. Man that stung. Anyway, its a mute point again if Edwards is called for kicking out his leg instead of Lamonte for running into said kicked out leg. How much is your perception of Barnes changed if that happens (or Ryan Cline misses one more 30 footer, or we make one more free throw in regulation, or whatever) and we win that game? Legitimate question
It’s not, it’s just a bar they can set and use against Barnes...honestly it would be even more foolish for them to admit that a swallowed whistle by a ref would literally cause a 180° change on their perception of Barnes. Sure there’s plays or moves from that game we can question, but fact is if the ref doesn’t make that call then Barnes is in the E8, not because of some great coaching move but simply because a ref didn’t make a call. That example shouldn’t change anyone’s opinion on how good of a coach Barnes is, yet they constantly want to point to that mark as if it would change their mind completely.
 

mr.checkerboards

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And yet he was able to produce the #1 team in the nation for about 5 weeks...pretty remarkable for a coach that the game has passed him by.

And again, he’s a no call away from an E8, so to act like it’s some definitive statement that S16 is his ceiling is pretty foolish.
So I should think he can get somewhere that hes never been in the modern game?
 

cardvolfan

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Im not worried about efficiency. Obviously better players equals better results. The original argument was about threes and how Barnes dislikes his teams taking them. I then pointed out a stat about how low ranked TN is. How many mid range jump shots do Barnes teams take? Its well documented that Barnes offense take a lot of them. Oregon is another team that is always solid on offense, through an equal number of games they have taken 600 threes to TN shooting 539. Auburn shot 751. UNCG, whos coach I think will get a better look somewhere soon shot 763.
Really, you would be a lot better off switching your fandom. Your negativity and hate for Tennessee is pretty evident. It’s okay.... you can make the switch.
 

bleedingTNorange

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So I should think he can get somewhere that hes never been in the modern game?
Brad Underwood has never made it to a Sweet 16, yet how many people expected Illinois to make it there or further? Scott Drew has never made a F4, yet many expect them to be there? Mark Few has never won a championship but people all over the place are predicting they win it all?

I’m not saying you should bet your money on it but acting like it’s a stone cold fact that Barnes can’t get past the Sweet 16 is pretty foolish imo.
 

mr.checkerboards

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Brad Underwood has never made it to a Sweet 16, yet how many people expected Illinois to make it there or further? Scott Drew has never made a F4, yet many expect them to be there? Mark Few has never won a championship but people all over the place are predicting they win it all?

I’m not saying you should bet your money on it but acting like it’s a stone cold fact that Barnes can’t get past the Sweet 16 is pretty foolish imo.
Brad Underwood is 57 and only been a HC for 8 years.
Scott Drew is 50 with 2 Elite Eights.
They are both much younger and already run a more modern offense, there are reasons to think they will figure it out. They are both where Pearl was before he got canned.
 

cardvolfan

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Brad Underwood is 57 and only been a HC for 8 years.
Scott Drew is 50 with 2 Elite Eights.
They are both much younger and already run a more modern offense, there are reasons to think they will figure it out. They are both where Pearl was before he got canned.
Your narrative is simply, “I hate Tennessee.” You remind me of the Memphis fans 2 years ago who were so adamant they were Tennessee fans. Where are they now?
 

bleedingTNorange

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Brad Underwood is 57 and only been a HC for 8 years.
Scott Drew is 50 with 2 Elite Eights.
They are both much younger and already run a more modern offense, there are reasons to think they will figure it out. They are both where Pearl was before he got canned.
Barnes has been to E8’s and F4 though, if you wanna limit it to last 10 years then wtf does those guys age matter? 10 years is 10 years? Underwood isn’t exactly a young coach?

Until 5 years ago Mark Few had never made a F4, he had been to 17 NCAAT at that point, by your rule he had hit his ceiling and maxed out...no he looks likely to make another F4 this year?
 
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mr.checkerboards

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Barnes has been to E8’s and F4 though, if you wanna limit it to last 10 years then wtf does those guys age matter? 10 years is 10 years? Underwood isn’t exactly a young coach?

Until 5 years ago Mark Few had never made a F4, he had been to 17 NCAAT at that point, by your rule he had hit his ceiling and maxed out...no he looks likely to make another F4 this year?
Ok and comparing Underwood to Barnes, Underwood has another decade to figure it out. This is his first job hes had at a program that has a chance to do anything.
How many top 3 seeds has Gonzaga had? And again Few was 53 at that point and played a modern game, there were reasons to believe in him, and im not even a fan of that program. BTW, theyre not making it, Oregon will take them out.
 

kckempf

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Im not worried about efficiency. Obviously better players equals better results. The original argument was about threes and how Barnes dislikes his teams taking them. I then pointed out a stat about how low ranked TN is. How many mid range jump shots do Barnes teams take? Its well documented that Barnes offense take a lot of them. Oregon is another team that is always solid on offense, through an equal number of games they have taken 600 threes to TN shooting 539. Auburn shot 751. UNCG, whos coach I think will get a better look somewhere soon shot 763.
So you don’t like the shot selection for purely aesthetic reasons? Or is actually about offensive efficiency?
 

bleedingTNorange

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Ok and comparing Underwood to Barnes, Underwood has another decade to figure it out. This is his first job hes had at a program that has a chance to do anything.
How many top 3 seeds has Gonzaga had? And again Few was 53 at that point and played a modern game, there were reasons to believe in him, and im not even a fan of that program. BTW, theyre not making it, Oregon will take them out.
Lol ok
 

mr.checkerboards

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So you don’t like the shot selection for purely aesthetic reasons? Or is actually about offensive efficiency?
No, because you can be less efficient but more effective shooting a lower percentage of threes than making a bunch of twos. You can be less efficient and equally or more effective than shooting mid range shots.
 

Lurker

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I read your other post, but ill respond to them both here.

So at what point does your expectations and your goal meet? I know some hate the salary discussion, but lets say Barnes contract runs out he hasnt met the goal of an EE. However, during salary discussions Barnes wants 8 mil a year? Would you pay it?
I get having expectations, and I wouldnt argue if you said expectations would increase the longevity of a coaches tenure, but at some point goals have to come in play. If they dont then why have a goal?
In my world, my goal and my expectations are only indirectly related. My goal is always a championship, but my expectations are to be clean, competitive, etc. So, my ultimate goal and my standard expectations may never "meet" in the sense that my goal may never be accomplished. Winning it all is my goal, but not my expectation. In other words, he can be a successful long time coach in my view and never win it all.

As for salary, I would let the market set his salary. Assuming he is meeting expectations (so that he is eligible for retention), if he demands more than market, he would need to decide how much he really likes it here. If he's not meeting expectations I don't want him. I would be willing to pay market to keep a coach I want. If he is wanted but wants too much money, I guess he would walk.

Finally, if my expectations are set to what I want when we start the journey, they won't go up or down with longevity. They are what I expect. Meet them and stay. Fail and bye bye.
 
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mr.checkerboards

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In my world, my goal and my expectations are only indirectly related. My goal is always a championship, but my expectations are to be clean, competitive, etc. So, my ultimate goal and my standard expectations may never "meet" in the sense that my goal may never be accomplished. Winning it all is my goal, but not my expectation. In other words, he can be a successful long time coach in my view and never win it all.

As for salary, I would let the market set his salary. Assuming he is meeting expectations (so that he is eligible for retention), if he demands more than market, he would need to decide how much he really likes it here. If he's not meeting expectations I don't want him. I would be willing to pay market to keep a coach I want. If he is wanted but wants too much money, I guess he would walk.

Finally, if my expectations are set to what I want when we start the journey, they won't go up or down with longevity. They are what I expect. Meet them and stay. Fail and bye bye.
And I understand what you're saying but I couldn't and don't operate that way. If my salary commitment go up my expectations go up. If I'm running a business and have to pay you more but expect the same my ROI goes down. My goal is to turn as much profit as possible so if I pay you more, I expect more to keep my ROI the same or higher.
 

kckempf

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No, because you can be less efficient but more effective shooting a lower percentage of threes than making a bunch of twos. You can be less efficient and equally or more effective than shooting mid range shots.
How would you be less efficient but more effective? Efficiency is literally points per possession (or in the numbers I quoted, points per 100 possessions). Since the game is scored in points, your effectiveness at playing basketball is ultimately up to the amount of points that you score vs. the amount of points that you allow. A more effective offense would score more points per possession.
 

cardvolfan

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And I understand what you're saying but I couldn't and don't operate that way. If my salary commitment go up my expectations go up. If I'm running a business and have to pay you more but expect the same my ROI goes down. My goal is to turn as much profit as possible so if I pay you more, I expect more to keep my ROI the same or higher.
If you make less money, less is expected. You live in a fantasy world and have no idea how a competitive market world works. Years ago, I was taught that if I agreed on a job with an employer to do the best I could at an agreed upon rate, then I needed to give it my all.
 

mr.checkerboards

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If you make less money, less is expected. You live in a fantasy world and have no idea how a competitive market world works. Years ago, I was taught that if I agreed on a job with an employer to do the best I could at an agreed upon rate, then I needed to give it my all.
And sometimes your all isn't good enough. If I am a business owner my job is to maximize profitability. If I can pay person A 8 million and get xyz results or I can pay person B 5 million and match those results, why would I not choose person B?
 

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