Rick Barnes discussion [merged]

#2,077
#2,077
Vol49er said:
I don’t think it’s fair to say his ceiling is a S16. He was a cat’s whisker away from an E8 two years ago. If you can get a sweet 16 game to OT, you are capable of going to the elite eight

Of course he’s made a Final Four before too but I assume your rebuttal to that was that it was so long ago and now that the game has passed him by he could never make it back, so I saved us some time and skipped past that part 😂

And for what it’s worth I’ve been saying the offense needs to change since long before the tourney. I just think it’s possible to criticize the offense while still recognize the great program (re)building job that has been done
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Sure they went to OT, but his coaching decisions in OT reflect poorly on the outcome of that came. And yes it was so long ago that it doesnt matter.
 
#2,078
#2,078
mr.checkerboards said:
@Lurker

So my question is, if the goal is an EE? How many times does a coach get to not reach said goal before you move on? We know the programs ceiling is an EE because its been, there I dont care how said coaches got there, if Barnes made it I dont care how he got there, he could beat 4 16 seeds for all i care. But why keep a coach around, whos ceiling isnt as high as the programs?
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First, good catch on the thread/topic.

OK, here is my view and I suspect you won't like it. If I was the decider here's how I would decide:

My goal is to compete for the NC every year, not just an Elite Eight or a Final Four; however, attaining my goal is not a requirement for a coach's job security. My expectations are more important to me. Failure to meet my expectations is where I would part with a coach.

My expectations are for the coach to always run a clean, competitive college program, year in and year out. I expect to see good kids and good students being recruited and I expect to see, for the most part, the players' respective talents being improved and maximized athletically from year to year as well. I also expect the coach, players and program to be positive roll models and public credits to the University. A coach failing to meet my expectations will get me to move on, and pretty quickly depending on which one isn't met.

Given the large quantity and mostly uncontrollable nature of the variables that go into actually winning at a set level in any given year (i.e. skill, scheduling, health, refs, weather, luck, etc.), winning a NC (or whatever level you chose) would not drive a coaching retention decision in my book. The coach can't control all the factors that go into winning a NC. That's why I thought Texas' decision to "move on from" Barnes was myopic and idiocy. Bless their hearts and look how their "high standard" decision has turned out for them.

Meeting my expectations for coaching in a solid college program is, however, nearly entirely within a coach's control. Failure to meet my legitimate expectations will get a coach fired. In short, I think all aspects of schools exist to educate and they shouldn't be operated like a professional sports franchise. I want, but it is not essential, that Tennessee will someday win a NC. It is essential that I can be proud of the school and its basketball program, regardless of how the season ends. I don't define pride solely by an EE, a FF or a NC.

Thus, Barnes would stay in my world, maybe for a long, long time. Calipari, Pitino and those with their general approach to college basketball wouldn't qualify to be my coach.
 
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#2,079
#2,079
mr.checkerboards said:
Sure they went to OT, but his coaching decisions in OT reflect poorly on the outcome of that came. And yes it was so long ago that it doesnt matter.
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I'm gonna be completely honest, I barely remember that overtime. I think the pain has repressed that memory. Man that stung. Anyway, its a mute point again if Edwards is called for kicking out his leg instead of Lamonte for running into said kicked out leg. How much is your perception of Barnes changed if that happens (or Ryan Cline misses one more 30 footer, or we make one more free throw in regulation, or whatever) and we win that game? Legitimate question
 
#2,080
#2,080
mr.checkerboards said:
@MoCo_Vol
"Well to be fair, football is a shorter season without a huge ass single elimination tournament. Sure we can say the CFP is a tournament, but even then it's just 2 games and they are a week apart.

March Madness is one of the toughest things to win in all of sports and it's why so few coaches have done it."

Right im not arguing its not hard to win. But im also not arguing about winning it right now? Pearl made an EE in 6 years, so can we not reasonably think, if Barnes is actually as good of a coach that some think he is he would not be able to match that?
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Feel like there's more luck involved with getting to that level in basketball compared to Football. Difference between 12-15 on a team and 85+ and the year we made it to the EE we had some luck, Ohio upsetting Georgetown. Ohio State's Diebler scoring only 3 points and going 1 of 7 from 3 despite being a 42% from deep that season.

Pearl also had 7 top 100 players on that team, no one seems to remember how stacked of a roster he had. Barnes' best squad (this year) only had 4. Lots of factors to it. Pearl's next season was awful despite having added Tobias Harris & Jordan McRae and having 8 top 100 players they went 19-15 and 500 in the SEC and got bounced in the first round with a pathetic 30 point loss.
 
#2,081
#2,081
Lurker said:
First, good catch on the thread/topic.

OK, here is my view and I suspect you won't like it. If I was the decider here's how I would decide:

My goal is to compete for the NC every year, not just an Elite Eight or a Final Four; however, attaining my goal is not a requirement for a coach's job security. My expectations are more important to me. Failure to meet my expectations is where I would part with a coach.

My expectations are for the coach to always run a clean, competitive college program, year in and year out. I expect to see good kids and good students being recruited and I expect to see, for the most part, the players' respective talents being improved and maximized athletically from year to year as well. I also expect the coach, players and program to be positive roll models and public credits to the University. A coach failing to meet my expectations will get me to move on, and pretty quickly depending on which one isn't met.

Given the large quantity and mostly uncontrollable nature of the variables that go into actually winning at a set level in any given year (i.e. skill, scheduling, health, refs, weather, luck, etc.), winning a NC (or whatever level you chose) would not drive a coaching retention decision in my book. The coach can't control all the factors that go into winning a NC. That's why I thought Texas' decision to "move on from" Barnes was myopic and idiocy. Bless their hearts and look how their "high standard" decision has turned out for them.

Meeting my expectations for coaching in a solid college program is, however, nearly entirely within a coach's control. Failure to meet my legitimate expectations will get a coach fired. In short, I think all aspects of schools exist to educate and they shouldn't be operated like a professional sports franchise. I want, but it is not essential, that Tennessee will someday win a NC. It is essential that I can be proud of the school and its basketball program, regardless of how the season ends. I don't define pride solely by an EE, a FF or a NC.

Thus, Barnes would stay in my world, maybe for a long, long time. Calipari, Pitino and those with their general approach to college basketball wouldn't qualify to be my coach.
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Thats a good post. I can't say the team actually winning a fair amount of games isn't a part of my expectations as well, but I definitely care about being able to take pride in the program not being a wreck too. Even when the football team is good I feel like I have to hold my breath every offseason for some sort of burglary or assault charge to fall down. Also with your expectations about the players being maximized winning would follow from that

But most of all I appreciate you differentiating between goals and expectations. That's an excellent point that was well put and that I wish was grasped by more posters. I think all of us would like the goal to be a NC, but it is not a realistic expectation for the basketball program (or, at this point if we're being honest, the football program).
 
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#2,082
#2,082
My expectations include winning. "My expectations are for the coach to always run a clean, competitive college program, year in and year out."

Getting to the NCAAT is being competitive in my book.
 
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#2,083
#2,083
mr.checkerboards said:
Pearl had it hid if we didnt have a weak ass admin that threw him under the bus.
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How did he have it hid(den), exactly? The NCAA had pictured proof and testimony provided to them by the Craft family. Hamilton did him no favors but this revisionist history that Pearl had things tidied up and under wraps is foolish.
 
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#2,084
#2,084
mr.checkerboards said:
Just watch the games, look at the stats and listen to Barnes. He wants to play through the post, and hates his players taking threes. TN ranked 141st in attempts this year.
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I really want you to do a deep dive on this and give me some details. You can't possibly have such a strong opinion based on superficial reasons. You can come on here with a strong opinion but if you don't have anything to back it up, nobody has any reason to take you seriously. Might as well be shouting into the void.
 
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#2,086
#2,086
Pearl also had some damn good talented teams that should have went father into the NCAA Tournament.

He was a good coach but to say he took every team to an elite status is stretching it.
 
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#2,087
#2,087
mr.checkerboards said:
Just watch the games, look at the stats and listen to Barnes. He wants to play through the post, and hates his players taking threes. TN ranked 141st in attempts this year.
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Hates his players taking 3’s? I just have to laugh every time I read your posts. Always amusing, especially your refusal to acknowledge that co-SEC champions are still champions. Keep the good content coming.
 
#2,088
#2,088
Lurker said:
My expectations include winning. "My expectations are for the coach to always run a clean, competitive college program, year in and year out."

Getting to the NCAAT is being competitive in my book.
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I read your other post, but ill respond to them both here.

So at what point does your expectations and your goal meet? I know some hate the salary discussion, but lets say Barnes contract runs out he hasnt met the goal of an EE. However, during salary discussions Barnes wants 8 mil a year? Would you pay it?
I get having expectations, and I wouldnt argue if you said expectations would increase the longevity of a coaches tenure, but at some point goals have to come in play. If they dont then why have a goal?
 
#2,090
#2,090
VolGee4 said:
At this point, Rick Barnes and Scott Drew do not have comparable resumes. Maybe Drew gets there or passes Barnes in 15 more years. Drew took over a bad situation and took a while, but Barnes has taken 4 different schools to the NCAAT with 3 going to a Sweet 16.
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Drew also had a run-in with the NCAA. Correct me if I’m wrong.
 
#2,091
#2,091
cncchris33 said:
How did he have it hid(den), exactly? The NCAA had pictured proof and testimony provided to them by the Craft family. Hamilton did him no favors but this revisionist history that Pearl had things tidied up and under wraps is foolish.
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Maybe remind him that Pearl himself admitted guilt and wrongdoing, and that he deserved what he got, in his own words. The evidence was so straight-forward that no one could have said differently.
 
#2,092
#2,092
jmva1 said:
It’s not that I’m against playing through the post. It’s the insistence on playing through the post when you don’t have the personnel to that frustrates me
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COVID year impacted some more than others. Having to substitute Fulky at the 18 minute mark in many games is proof that he was heavily affected. You try what you think will work, you try to reward your loyal players, but this was the mother of all years.
 
#2,093
#2,093
Vol49er said:
I'm gonna be completely honest, I barely remember that overtime. I think the pain has repressed that memory. Man that stung. Anyway, its a mute point again if Edwards is called for kicking out his leg instead of Lamonte for running into said kicked out leg. How much is your perception of Barnes changed if that happens (or Ryan Cline misses one more 30 footer, or we make one more free throw in regulation, or whatever) and we win that game? Legitimate question
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The issue I have with that game is Barnes complete mismanagement in OT. He opened up OT with Grant on the bench for the first minute and a half until Turner got hurt. Purdue won the tip got a foul on KA and made 1/2 free throws. Then on 0 Turner took a 3 with a decent look but it wasnt wide open and missed. On the next possession Purdue gets a drive and a tip in rebound because Purdue got a switch and had Bone on their center. Turner then gets hurt on a mid range jumper and this is where Grant comes in. So theres 3 possessions that gave Purdue all the momentum and at that point they never trailed. Not trusting his SEC POY because he has 4 fouls is such a weak move at that point in the game.
 
#2,094
#2,094
kckempf said:
I really want you to do a deep dive on this and give me some details. You can't possibly have such a strong opinion based on superficial reasons. You can come on here with a strong opinion but if you don't have anything to back it up, nobody has any reason to take you seriously. Might as well be shouting into the void.
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So team rankings arent reasons or are you just looking to ignore them. How about watching the games and offense we run? Curls that end up in constant mid range jumpers. Post up after post up. Where are the pick and pops? Where are the flare screens? How about post game instead of whining about not having an inside presence say, we didnt shoot very well?
 
#2,095
#2,095
Speaking of it, I remember watching Pearl’s 2008 Sweet 16 team collapsing in the 2nd half against Louisville. I was so pissed off at the TV that day that I didn’t want to watch the rest of the Tournament.

I really felt that team should have made a Final Four run. Probably one of Pearl’s worst coaching jobs during his time here.
 
#2,096
#2,096
VolFreakJosh said:
Speaking of it, I remember watching Pearl’s 2008 Sweet 16 team collapsing in the 2nd half against Louisville. I was so pissed off at the TV that day that I didn’t want to watch the rest of the Tournament.

I really felt that team should have made a Final Four run. Probably one of Pearl’s worst coaching jobs during his time here.
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06-07 when we blew the 20 pt lead to Ohio State. That's the one that always sticks in my memory.
 
#2,097
#2,097
mr.checkerboards said:
The issue I have with that game is Barnes complete mismanagement in OT. He opened up OT with Grant on the bench for the first minute and a half until Turner got hurt. Purdue won the tip got a foul on KA and made 1/2 free throws. Then on 0 Turner took a 3 with a decent look but it wasnt wide open and missed. On the next possession Purdue gets a drive and a tip in rebound because Purdue got a switch and had Bone on their center. Turner then gets hurt on a mid range jumper and this is where Grant comes in. So theres 3 possessions that gave Purdue all the momentum and at that point they never trailed. Not trusting his SEC POY because he has 4 fouls is such a weak move at that point in the game.
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Ok, I've complained about his substitution patterns on here before too. I can concede that that doesn't sound like he managed it well. But I'm genuinely curious about the answer to my question about how differently you would view him we just had a bit more luck and won that game, even if we lose to the eventual national champ the next game?
 
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#2,098
#2,098
mr.checkerboards said:
@bleedingTNorange
"In that scenario...

Barnes last 4 season: 4 NCAAT, 2S16, 1R32, 1R64...5-4 record

Pearl’s last 4 season: 4NCAAT, 1E8, 1S16, 2R64...5-4 record


Yet Pearl deserves a statue and had fans hopeful and Barnes would be same ole same ole and time to move on?"

The difference is age longevity and track record. Barnes is 66 now and hasnt been past the sweet 16 since 07. He has a 30 year track record that shows what he is in March.
Pearl was 53 when he took TN to the EE. Since then he has been to a FF. TN was the first major program he had been at and nobody really knew what his ceiling was. We know now its a FF (as of now). Again like I told the other poster, he got there I dont care how he got there or who he beat.
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Few thoughts here:

Bruce will always be revered because he's the first coach that really just brought something different with his energy level. Bruce ball was an exciting time here at UT. I was in high school and couldn't get enough of Lofton, Dane, Chism, etc. It was fun. It was exciting. It was new. I remember criticism started creeping in near the end of his tenure when we were no longer the scrappy bunch. We were the highly recruited bunch that couldn't shoot.

Barnes is a victim of Twitter culture and just being the current coach. Was this season disappointing? Yes, absolutely. We should've easily been a Top 20 team all year. Is Barnes a victim of a changing game and unwillingness to change? It seems to be that way as of this year. Now, as another post said, Barnes needs a post. Give him a Grant type that can be a hub down low, and he's probably just fine. Problem is, kids aren't coming up playing that way any longer. He should search the transfer portal for a kid that can run the paint and also pass a little. Hopefully he can do so. Either way, firing talk is just dumb. Could Barnes fizzle out? Yes for sure. We'll be much better off if we wait a year or two and make sure though vs. firing another coach here.
 
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#2,099
#2,099
Barnes issue is that he likes hard nosed defensive minded guys. He also likes guys that has a good work ethic. But he has never prioritized shooters. I cant really remember one guy who was a pure shooter that came to Tennessee under him. They all have had to work their ass off in their own time to improve their shot. Admiral for example.
 
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