Rethinking Hamilton's Tenure

#126
#126
Oskie Volum said:
Also...and I've said a gazillion times...we did not need the run of the mill HC at that time. we needed a HC that also knew how to take care of issues in the AD not just on the field. Once u r able to wrap ur head around that then maybe u can see who refuses to see things for the way they were. U r arguing pity little issues compared to the grand scheme of issues that UT football and the Athletic Dept had going on.

Ie..ur "he hurt relationships with HCs with their own agendas" was an easy fix by CBJ. And done really quick pretty much with his hire and him not being dooley. Cleaning up all the NCAA infractions, and land mines left dooley after Kiffin and yrs and yrs of AD neglect...wasn't so easy. See the difference?? Therefore CBJ is benefiting heavily from just these 2 examples from Dooley's tenure.
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You make a good argument for Doolander.

In all honesty, he put up one of the greatest offenses (or was it the greatest?) in UT history. It's too bad the Sunseri Project was a disaster - if he had even had a middle-tier Defense we could've had a run for the east in what was largely a down year.
 
#127
#127
Oskie Volum said:
Also...and I've said a gazillion times...we did not need the run of the mill HC at that time. we needed a HC that also knew how to take care of issues in the AD not just on the field. Once u r able to wrap ur head around that then maybe u can see who refuses to see things for the way they were. U r arguing pity little issues compared to the grand scheme of issues that UT football and the Athletic Dept had going on.

Ie..ur "he hurt relationships with HCs with their own agendas" was an easy fix by CBJ. And done really quick pretty much with his hire and him not being dooley. Cleaning up all the NCAA infractions, and land mines left dooley after Kiffin and yrs and yrs of AD neglect...wasn't so easy. See the difference?? Therefore CBJ is benefiting heavily from just these 2 examples from Dooley's tenure.
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You mention the huge issues in the AD time and time again. But what are these that Dooley fixed? Were we paying players? Were we setting up bogus classes for players a la UNC? Were we padding the acct. books and he cleaned that up?

He told the hostesses to stop showing up at high school games. Fine. When he appeared before the NCAA infractions board, Dooley spoke for 5 minutes. If he fixed a huge ton of infractions, don't you think they would have queried him for a lot longer?

Just not buying that Dooley was the best thing to happen to us.
 
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#128
#128
Oskie Volum said:
Also...and I've said a gazillion times...we did not need the run of the mill HC at that time. we needed a HC that also knew how to take care of issues in the AD not just on the field. Once u r able to wrap ur head around that then maybe u can see who refuses to see things for the way they were. U r arguing pity little issues compared to the grand scheme of issues that UT football and the Athletic Dept had going on.

Ie..ur "he hurt relationships with HCs with their own agendas" was an easy fix by CBJ. And done really quick pretty much with his hire and him not being dooley. Cleaning up all the NCAA infractions, and land mines left dooley after Kiffin and yrs and yrs of AD neglect...wasn't so easy. See the difference?? Therefore CBJ is benefiting heavily from just these 2 examples from Dooley's tenure.
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Luke Fickell is as run of the mill of they come and he did a good job of handling an NCAA investigation at Ohio St that was a lot worse than TN.
 
#129
#129
OldandStillaVol said:
You mention the huge issues in the AD time and time again. But what are these that Dooley fixed? Were we paying players? Were we setting up bogus classes for players a la UNC? Were we padding the acct. books and he cleaned that up?

He told the hostesses to stop showing up at high school games. Fine. When he appeared before the NCAA infractions board, Dooley spoke for 5 minutes. If he fixed a huge ton of infractions, don't you think they would have queried him for a lot longer?

Just not buying that Dooley was the best thing to happen to us.
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Like I said originally there are probably things that we the regular fan will never know AND it's probably best we don't due to the embarrassment of it all. Do u want what UNC is going through right now to happen to UT?? I don't. We don't need those type of things coming up every so often. That's embarrassing for the institution, and it's alums. I know there's a big divide between Vol fans that went to the school and the ones that didn't. And one big factor is the importance of its reputation as an institution not just sports. I put a lot on that personally, and some don't. Doesn't make one or the other a bigger fan, but some care to win at all cost than others. Is what it is.

I don't know why that meeting went 5 mins. Doesn't mean that things weren't bad at UT, and he didn't clean it up. For all we know he had already sent all that was known to them and how he plans to clean it up, and he kept some things out of it so to not self inflict more than needed. The meeting could have just been a formality. Whoever he was meeting with could have just asked "how's ur daddy doin??" dooley said "well and he sends his regards. He's wondering when u coming down to play Augusta? thanks for asking" the investigator said "yeah I need to make it down and tell him i'll call him this week." dooley.."will do". Investigator..."U got this under control son?" Dooley.."Yes sir.". They shook hands and the investigator says.."Good and good luck. Now where we going to lunch?"

The above is just as feasible as ur negative look on why it took 5 mins.
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#130
#130
vols-1 said:
Luke Fickell is as run of the mill of they come and he did a good job of handling an NCAA investigation at Ohio St that was a lot worse than TN.
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The football program itself may have been in a worse situation than UTs but not the Football/AD dept combo. That's the part of my argument that everyone seems to just want to overlook as if it's not a HUGE factor.
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#131
#131
Stevorino said:
You make a good argument for Doolander.

In all honesty, he put up one of the greatest offenses (or was it the greatest?) in UT history. It's too bad the Sunseri Project was a disaster - if he had even had a middle-tier Defense we could've had a run for the east in what was largely a down year.
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Correct there were positives that no one recognize, and act like the guy was incompetent.

Not trying to argue on his behalf other than just want people to see the era for what it was...a huge hot mess in all of UTs AD not just football. Many of the ADs issues needed to be fixed first so that the fixes to the football program could settle correctly, some could happen at the same time, etc etc. Baby steps. And then there r the land mines. Happens when rebuilding a business and that's what was happening at that time. Not just rebuilding the football program.
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#133
#133
Hamilton was a 'bean counter' pure and simple IMO. In that, he did well. He should have been an Asst AD in charge of Debits & Credits. Also what he did outside of his AD duties makes no difference when you talk sports. IMO he greatly damaged the football program with his decisions. If he now wants to go to AFRICA and dig wells, good for him. We don't recruit there, he can no longer hurt UT.
 
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#134
#134
Oskie Volum said:
Like I said originally there are probably things that we the regular fan will never know AND it's probably best we don't due to the embarrassment of it all. Do u want what UNC is going through right now to happen to UT?? I don't. We don't need those type of things coming up every so often. That's embarrassing for the institution, and it's alums. I know there's a big divide between Vol fans that went to the school and the ones that didn't. And one big factor is the importance of its reputation as an institution not just sports. I put a lot on that personally, and some don't. Doesn't make one or the other a bigger fan, but some care to win at all cost than others. Is what it is.

I don't know why that meeting went 5 mins. Doesn't mean that things weren't bad at UT, and he didn't clean it up. For all we know he had already sent all that was known to them and how he plans to clean it up, and he kept some things out of it so to not self inflict more than needed. The meeting could have just been a formality. Whoever he was meeting with could have just asked "how's ur daddy doin??" dooley said "well and he sends his regards. He's wondering when u coming down to play Augusta? thanks for asking" the investigator said "yeah I need to make it down and tell him i'll call him this week." dooley.."will do". Investigator..."U got this under control son?" Dooley.."Yes sir.". They shook hands and the investigator says.."Good and good luck. Now where we going to lunch?"

The above is just as feasible as ur negative look on why it took 5 mins.
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So bottom line is you don't know what mess Dooley cleaned up but you're sure he cleared the path for Jones. If it comes out later that he prevented a UNC situation from developing at UT, I'll change my opinion.

I want UT to play by the rules, compete and yes, win in the SEC. I acknowledge Dooley played by the rules but unfortunately, we weren't competing or winning at the SEC level. Doesn't make Dooley a bad man but he is not what we needed then or now.
 
#135
#135
Just so everyone has a full comprehension of how Hamulton even got the job, this is exactly how it went down. Schumaker (the then president) was fixing to leave for vacation and didn't want the AD hire to be hanging over his head so just before he left his office he told his secretary to release a statement indicating Hamilton was the new AD. Hamilton wasn't even the top 2-3 on the list of the firm that was hired to conduct the search!
 
#136
#136
OldandStillaVol said:
So bottom line is you don't know what mess Dooley cleaned up but you're sure he cleared the path for Jones. If it comes out later that he prevented a UNC situation from developing at UT, I'll change my opinion.

I want UT to play by the rules, compete and yes, win in the SEC. I acknowledge Dooley played by the rules but unfortunately, we weren't competing or winning at the SEC level. Doesn't make Dooley a bad man but he is not what we needed then or now.
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Well I hope u never change ur opinion cause I will never want UNC type or any kind of negatives to come out. But u can stay as naive as u want. I had a friends Granddad describe someone like u we were talking about simply as someone "that was afraid to look down in the toilet."

I'm glad u think that dooley played by the rules but thinking he had enough time to do it and succeed in the SEC is just ridiculous. We r talking 2 different things cause ur argument is just talking on the field success and I'm combining that with the rebuild of the AD as a whole which includes the football program. Imho It's reasonable to put the 3yr time frame on CBJ, but not on the dooley era. Or no matter who the coach would have been.
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#138
#138
KBVol said:
Congrats. You got the guy that reads like he's on meth and/or bath salts when he posts on here to agree with you ..... so there's that.
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Huh...well it takes one to one to know one. :p

Yes I stepped really low on purpose to mirror ur response. Smh.
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#139
#139
Oskie Volum said:
Well I hope u never change ur opinion cause I will never want UNC type or any kind of negatives to come out. But u can stay as naive as u want. I had a friends Granddad describe someone like u we were talking about simply as someone "that was afraid to look down in the toilet."

I'm glad u think that dooley played by the rules but thinking he had enough time to do it and succeed in the SEC is just ridiculous. We r talking 2 different things cause ur argument is just talking on the field success and I'm combining that with the rebuild of the AD as a whole which includes the football program. Imho It's reasonable to put the 3yr time frame on CBJ, but not on the dooley era. Or no matter who the coach would have been.
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From Athlon, the 20 worst coaches all-time at Great Programs.....

"Great coaches are easy to spot.


Apparently, so are bad ones.

Last month, Athlon's ranked the 20 all-time worst coaches at great programs. The SEC is well represented, including an active coach in the league.

To determine which programs would be included, Athlon's list took into account fertile recruiting grounds, championship tradition and support from fans and administration."

No. 1 on the list?

That honor goes to Derek Dooley, who coached at Tennessee from 2010 to 2012.

"A Nick Saban disciple and the son of one of the SEC's greatest coaches, what could go wrong? Pretty much everything. Dooley inherited a program damaged by Lane Kiffin's lone season, but Dooley set the Volunteers further back by going winless against ranked teams, winless against SEC teams in October and 2-14 in the SEC his last two seasons. Quotable, yes. Great hair, yes. Good coach, not really."

Sure looks like Athlon agrees with the other 99.999% of us on here...
 
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#140
#140
As bad as he sucked, anyone who thinks that Dooley is the all-time worst major college football coach knows jack about the sport's history.
 
#141
#141
KBVol said:
From Athlon, the 20 worst coaches all-time at Great Programs.....

"Great coaches are easy to spot.


Apparently, so are bad ones.

Last month, Athlon's ranked the 20 all-time worst coaches at great programs. The SEC is well represented, including an active coach in the league.

To determine which programs would be included, Athlon's list took into account fertile recruiting grounds, championship tradition and support from fans and administration."

No. 1 on the list?

That honor goes to Derek Dooley, who coached at Tennessee from 2010 to 2012.

"A Nick Saban disciple and the son of one of the SEC's greatest coaches, what could go wrong? Pretty much everything. Dooley inherited a program damaged by Lane Kiffin's lone season, but Dooley set the Volunteers further back by going winless against ranked teams, winless against SEC teams in October and 2-14 in the SEC his last two seasons. Quotable, yes. Great hair, yes. Good coach, not really."

Sure looks like Athlon agrees with the other 99.999% of us on here...
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Ok?? And do u really think I care what some dude at Athlon thinks?? This is sports opinions...u know the old joke. I have my opinion and some dude that is arguing from the same direction as most of yall isn't going to do jack for me man. The guy who wrote that is no different than majority of us on here. Just cause he writes a sports column doesn't bring anything more to the table. He's probably an outsider looking in, and from reading his arguments just knows the basics of the situation. Are u now going to use Bleacher Report too?? If u r going to reference a ranking or poll find one done with actual CFB coaches man. At least that would have credibility. This was such a petty attempt bro. Embarrassing.

Ohh btw...not sure if u ever heard this cool story of mine bro...a few yrs back I ran into an NFL HC at a valet stand after brunch. I really didn't notice the guy for who he was but he had a Power T workout jacket on. Light grayish, and not to heavy as it was a nice breezy early afternoon...for those who want the details there. Anywho...I was just going to say Go Vols to the guy, and that's about it...then I noticed who it was. I'm not a star gazer and can care less but seriously a NFL HC is wearing a UT jacket I had to ask. So I did. He said dooley and he are good friends. His wife and he had gone to a game the season prior, and his wife loved the area yadda yadda yadda. So finally he said that dooley is a good coach, and knows what he is doing. If we the fans give him the right amount of time with patience he'll get it done, and UT back where it needs to be. We got in our cars and went on our separate ways.

Soooo after that little story who do u think I would/should put more credence in???
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#143
#143
Oskie Volum said:
Ok?? And do u really think I care what some dude at Athlon thinks?? This is sports opinions...u know the old joke. I have my opinion and some dude that is arguing from the same direction as most of yall isn't going to do jack for me man. The guy who wrote that is no different than majority of us on here. Just cause he writes a sports column doesn't bring anything more to the table. He's probably an outsider looking in, and from reading his arguments just knows the basics of the situation. Are u now going to use Bleacher Report too?? If u r going to reference a ranking or poll find one done with actual CFB coaches man. At least that would have credibility. This was such a petty attempt bro. Embarrassing.

Ohh btw...not sure if u ever heard this cool story of mine bro...a few yrs back I ran into an NFL HC at a valet stand after brunch. I really didn't notice the guy for who he was but he had a Power T workout jacket on. Light grayish, and not to heavy as it was a nice breezy early afternoon...for those who want the details there. Anywho...I was just going to say Go Vols to the guy, and that's about it...then I noticed who it was. I'm not a star gazer and can care less but seriously a NFL HC is wearing a UT jacket I had to ask. So I did. He said dooley and he are good friends. His wife and he had gone to a game the season prior, and his wife loved the area yadda yadda yadda. So finally he said that dooley is a good coach, and knows what he is doing. If we the fans give him the right amount of time with patience he'll get it done, and UT back where it needs to be. We got in our cars and went on our separate ways.

Soooo after that little story who do u think I would/should put more credence in???
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I put absolutely ZERO credence into your story....no offense.

He came into a difficult situation after Kiffin's hurried and classless departure. He had to deal with NCAA agreed upon- UT self imposed sanctions for minor secondary violations. There were no bowl bans (although his coaching took care of that anyway), no scholarship reductions. Just some probation and reductions in coaching evaluation times and iirc reductions in allowed official visits by 4 or so. There was some chaos early on and he had to try and deal with a "depleted" roster after some scholarship players left. But basically, it was nothing that a couple or 3 good, solid classes and some quality coaching couldn't overcome relatively quickly. Unfortunately, he produced neither with any consistency .... I'm being very generous with the last statement.

He did a good job with the first recruiting class, did a nice job holding onto Kiffin's recruits, especially Bray and Hunter.

However, that's about it. His recruiting classes got progressively worse, the record on the field, with him on the sidelines got progressively worse ( 6-7, 5-7, 4-7), culminating with a blowout loss to vanderbilt where the team quit on him again....much like the previous year's Kentucky game. Additionally, off the field, the team also pulled up the bottom of the conference, finishing dead last in APR.

I'm sorry, but statements like "he had stuff to clean up in the athletic department that most fans never even knew about" just don't fly. All coaches, all ADs deal with internal issues. You can't just throw out the nebulous statement that he had stuff that nobody else has ever dealt with....it's just not true. Unless you can provide specific examples, that excuse is incredibly lame and invalid.

Ultimately, he's judged on on the field results, how well he improved the teams talent, how well the team performed in the classroom, the overall feeling and mood of the program by fans, recruits and football experts.... he literally failed on all counts.
 
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#144
#144
There was no thinking going on during the MH tenure so there is no reason to rethink anything. That dummy single handedly dug our hole.
 
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#145
#145
knoxvols11 said:
Just so everyone has a full comprehension of how Hamulton even got the job, this is exactly how it went down. Schumaker (the then president) was fixing to leave for vacation and didn't want the AD hire to be hanging over his head so just before he left his office he told his secretary to release a statement indicating Hamilton was the new AD. Hamilton wasn't even the top 2-3 on the list of the firm that was hired to conduct the search!
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Similar to how a lot of other decisions were "reasoned" in the UTAD since around 2000.

No wonder that one of the once dominant SEC teams has posted, what, 4 losing seasons in a row and 5 out of the last 6? It is so disturbing I have trouble keeping the count.
 
#146
#146
KBVol said:
I put absolutely ZERO credence into your story....no offense.

He came into a difficult situation after Kiffin's hurried and classless departure. He had to deal with NCAA agreed upon- UT self imposed sanctions for minor secondary violations. There were no bowl bans (although his coaching took care of that anyway), no scholarship reductions. Just some probation and reductions in coaching evaluation times and iirc reductions in allowed official visits by 4 or so. There was some chaos early on and he had to try and deal with a "depleted" roster after some scholarship players left. But basically, it was nothing that a couple or 3 good, solid classes and some quality coaching couldn't overcome relatively quickly. Unfortunately, he produced neither with any consistency .... I'm being very generous with the last statement.

He did a good job with the first recruiting class, did a nice job holding onto Kiffin's recruits, especially Bray and Hunter.

However, that's about it. His recruiting classes got progressively worse, the record on the field, with him on the sidelines got progressively worse ( 6-7, 5-7, 4-7), culminating with a blowout loss to vanderbilt where the team quit on him again....much like the previous year's Kentucky game. Additionally, off the field, the team also pulled up the bottom of the conference, finishing dead last in APR.

I'm sorry, but statements like "he had stuff to clean up in the athletic department that most fans never even knew about" just don't fly. All coaches, all ADs deal with internal issues. You can't just throw out the nebulous statement that he had stuff that nobody else has ever dealt with....it's just not true. Unless you can provide specific examples, that excuse is incredibly lame and invalid.

Ultimately, he's judged on on the field results, how well he improved the teams talent, how well the team performed in the classroom, the overall feeling and mood of the program by fans, recruits and football experts.... he literally failed on all counts.
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U put zero credence into my story?? Please explain that.

Ultimately, there are things some will know and some won't about situations. Why things were caused, and why they were handled in certain ways. They r kept in house for a reason, and for the best. I'm perfectly ok with that, because I would rather not have them out for all to laugh at UT or to get into more trouble with the NCAA. Frankly it happens everyday, and it's the way the world turns. Like it or not. We have different beliefs on that, and that doesn't make either one of us an idiot or incompetent. Makes us form different opinions. Like I've said before ur opinion comes from one direction, and mine comes from a different. U think I'm an idiot or incompetent because my direction comes from somewhere IMO u r to naive or incapable for whatever reason to wrap ur head around. Reason why we go round and round.
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#147
#147
Boca Vol said:
The Kiffin "hire" wasn't the problem. I seem to recall a pretty fired up fan base when he was hired and Hamilton opened the wallet and paid a king's ransom for the rest of the staff. The problem was Kiffin leaving. That's what put UT in a hole. Who knew Carroll would leave for the NFL opening the door for Kiffin at USC?

Is all of that on Hamilton? No. However, he could have protected UT more with the language in the contracts.
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It's right to question the HIRING of Kiffin and not put everything on how he left, although, yes, obviously that was a disaster.

I am amazed that somehow Kiffin keeps getting hired for high profile jobs. He did not impress me in his one year here, and my best friend from college lives in LA and says USCw fans simply loathed him and also questioned why he was hired.

I could go on and on about this, but let me cut to the chase. There is a youtube of the ESPN gameday crew discussing the (then brand new) news of Kiffin's hire in November 2008. They ask each guy "is it a good hire?".

Lee Corso is the last to answer...and he said "I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would hire Lane Kiffin for ANY head coaching job!". BOOM! How the HELL does he keep getting these high profile jobs? He must give a helluva BJ during interviews, cause that's the only thing I can figure.
 
#148
#148
BanditVol said:
It's right to question the HIRING of Kiffin and not put everything on how he left, although, yes, obviously that was a disaster.

I am amazed that somehow Kiffin keeps getting hired for high profile jobs. He did not impress me in his one year here, and my best friend from college lives in LA and says USCw fans simply loathed him and also questioned why he was hired.

I could go on and on about this, but let me cut to the chase. There is a youtube of the ESPN gameday crew discussing the (then brand new) news of Kiffin's hire in November 2008. They ask each guy "is it a good hire?".

Lee Corso is the last to answer...and he said "I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would hire Lane Kiffin for ANY head coaching job!". BOOM! How the HELL does he keep getting these high profile jobs? He must give a helluva BJ during interviews, cause that's the only thing I can figure.
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he is an incredible salesman. which is why he is such a great recruiter. and why so many still believe that he is a "great coach" despite all of the evidence indicating otherwise.

he hoodwinked oakland, TN, and USC -- the results speak for themselves. my guess is that satan is smart enough to see kitten's real value and will keep him recruiting and away from X's and O's.
 
#149
#149
Hamilton was given the AD position because Shumaker was going on vacation and didn't want to mess with the ordeal any more. He is the one that needs blame laid at his feet for not doing his job to begin with!
 
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