KnoxVillain
Big Orange Faithless
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Religion is overrated.....
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tennesseegirl
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MWR
The Road not Taken.
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I’ve read a lot of posts on this board over the years - several in this thread - by people who say they are atheist. And that’s who I’m talking to here.
Here’s what I gather is the gist of these posts. I’m not trying to be argumentative or mean spirited, just trying to understand where the atheist are coming from.
Most of you that say you are atheist, say that your life is based on science, cold hard facts and logic. And you have determined that there is no God because you cannot detect Him with any of your senses. And taking it even further, there are no events, actions, miracles, etc. that others attribute to God that cannot be explained in some other way or be caused by something else. Your burden of proof that there is a God is not met, so therefore there you have determined that there is no God.
And it has been stated many times at VN by the atheist posters that Christians - in general - are hyprocrites because they don’t always adhere to their beliefs, but only do so when it benefits them. From I’ve read, I feel it has been inferred that Christians are dumb, or ignorant, or generally not as intelligent as atheists. Or maybe all three.
And I’ve read posts here where the atheists have stated that they have morals. Some have posted here that they have never cheated anyone or done anyone wrong. Some might say that was epic morals and some might say that was an epic lie, but for now I’ll just say that is truly epic in scope, because I don’t want to debate moral here. I will say that I can’t see the logic of having morals if there is no God, because often morals are costly.
So far, I have gathered that you are saying that there is no God, that your lives are based science, cold hard facts and logic and that you are people with impeccable morals. That makes me wonder, since Christians are held in such low regard because of alleged hypocrisy, how do you atheists hold up when your own standard of logic is applied to you? Again, this is an attempt at logical thought by another one of these dumb, ignorant, Christians so bear with me. It is possible that I don’t understand your logic.
First off, by applying the standard of proof that you have for God, it stands to reason that you would have no soul. If there is no God, why would you need a soul? And where would it have come from? No God = no soul. Sounds logical to me. Can’t sense it and there is nothing attributed to the soul that cannot be attributed to something else. To me, having no soul makes humans just another animal. And evidently the most advanced form of animal life on this planet (thought some would debate that.)
That brings me here. About 3,000 to 2,500 years ago, the Bible stated that man’s days would be 70 years, maybe 80 because of health. Today’s scientist have compiled the data, used logic, cold hard facts and scientific method, crunched the numbers and came up with what, a lifespan of somewhere around 70 - 80 years? For my purposes, I’ll be generous and say 80 years - (that makes the math easier for us that are math challenged.) And while some of you speculate that time is a giant, never ending circle that takes billions of years to circumvent, I don’t’ see how that matters, because you’ve still only got approximately 80 years of time in your existence.
So, let’s see if we can find any logic in this. Let’s say you’ve got approximately 80 years of living, and then you die and cease to exist. Your existence of over, you are done, you break even, etc. And realistically, if you are going to do anything with your life, you’d be wise to have it done before you reach 50, because most people’s health is not as good at 50 as it was in their 20's, and it’s usually downhill from 50.
Let’s examine these 80 years - and I’m speaking in general terms here. The first 1/4 of them (1-18), you are either minding your parents or rebelling against them. And the last 3/8 of them (50-80), you don’t have the health and abilities you had when you were younger - it’s called getting older. So you have the ages from 20 to 50 to do whatever it is you are going to do. Thirty years of prime time. And on average you sleep 10 of them. And you average about 10 of them at work. So you really only have about 10 good years of your own time, time to “do your thing” as they used to say. Your time is a very valuable asset, one that cannot be replenished, it is finite - when it’s gone, it’s gone. Yet when it comes to your valuable, irreplaceable time, I’ve read many posts here where you quote the Bible and explain it’s meaning to Christians. This is futile - and hence illogical - on your part. Here’s what I base this on. Christians know the Bible tells them that an unbeliever cannot understand God’s word, so they are not going to listen. And since all others are non-believers, what do they care what the Bible says or means? Seems like you are wasting a good part of “your” 10 years in this process, and again this is valuable time that logic would seem to dictate should be used wisely, not wasted. I think logic would say, “Use your time wisely and productively. Get out and make some money, that’s what this life is about.”
Could it be that you are not living your life according to the logic that you say it is based on?
And you may say that the math is wrong, that you can post here while at work, so that gives you 20 years of your own time, instead of 10. Ok, good math but poor morals. Surely moral people would not be accepting a paycheck for working while they were posting on a football site. It seems illogical to say you have morals and then cheat your employers out of work they are paying you to do.
While reading these posts, it seems to me (and I could be wrong about this) there is an underlying arrogance in some of the atheist’s posts. I may have misinterpreted this and if so, I apologize. So that made me wonder about these things and here’s what I think may be a possible reason for this.
By applying the same standard of proof that you require of God, it would say that there is no other life in the universe besides what exists on earth. There is no proof whatsoever of life on other planets - you can’t detect any with your 5 senses and there is nothing that could be attributed to aliens that can’t be explained in some other way. And I’m not saying life on other planets doesn’t exist, but by applying your standard of proof for God, it doesn’t. By default, mankind becomes the most powerful species in the universe, therefore I could see the logic in striving to become the most powerful man on the planet.
And I base man being the most powerful being in the universe on man’s ability to destroy almost all of life on this planet. If any other life form has displayed this ability I’m unaware of it. And greatness that is measured in terms of ability to destroy is pretty sad. However, if you perceive man is the most powerful being in existence, and if that would help me understand the perceived arrogance.
Of course, I’m on here posting also. As far as cheating my employer, I work for myself. And as for wasting my valuable time, I think any waste of a valuable asset is bad, but time is just a passing thing to me.
“He has also set eternity in the hearts of men” Ecclesiastes 3:11
Here’s what I gather is the gist of these posts. I’m not trying to be argumentative or mean spirited, just trying to understand where the atheist are coming from.
Most of you that say you are atheist, say that your life is based on science, cold hard facts and logic. And you have determined that there is no God because you cannot detect Him with any of your senses. And taking it even further, there are no events, actions, miracles, etc. that others attribute to God that cannot be explained in some other way or be caused by something else. Your burden of proof that there is a God is not met, so therefore there you have determined that there is no God.
And it has been stated many times at VN by the atheist posters that Christians - in general - are hyprocrites because they don’t always adhere to their beliefs, but only do so when it benefits them. From I’ve read, I feel it has been inferred that Christians are dumb, or ignorant, or generally not as intelligent as atheists. Or maybe all three.
And I’ve read posts here where the atheists have stated that they have morals. Some have posted here that they have never cheated anyone or done anyone wrong. Some might say that was epic morals and some might say that was an epic lie, but for now I’ll just say that is truly epic in scope, because I don’t want to debate moral here. I will say that I can’t see the logic of having morals if there is no God, because often morals are costly.
So far, I have gathered that you are saying that there is no God, that your lives are based science, cold hard facts and logic and that you are people with impeccable morals. That makes me wonder, since Christians are held in such low regard because of alleged hypocrisy, how do you atheists hold up when your own standard of logic is applied to you? Again, this is an attempt at logical thought by another one of these dumb, ignorant, Christians so bear with me. It is possible that I don’t understand your logic.
First off, by applying the standard of proof that you have for God, it stands to reason that you would have no soul. If there is no God, why would you need a soul? And where would it have come from? No God = no soul. Sounds logical to me. Can’t sense it and there is nothing attributed to the soul that cannot be attributed to something else. To me, having no soul makes humans just another animal. And evidently the most advanced form of animal life on this planet (thought some would debate that.)
That brings me here. About 3,000 to 2,500 years ago, the Bible stated that man’s days would be 70 years, maybe 80 because of health. Today’s scientist have compiled the data, used logic, cold hard facts and scientific method, crunched the numbers and came up with what, a lifespan of somewhere around 70 - 80 years? For my purposes, I’ll be generous and say 80 years - (that makes the math easier for us that are math challenged.) And while some of you speculate that time is a giant, never ending circle that takes billions of years to circumvent, I don’t’ see how that matters, because you’ve still only got approximately 80 years of time in your existence.
So, let’s see if we can find any logic in this. Let’s say you’ve got approximately 80 years of living, and then you die and cease to exist. Your existence of over, you are done, you break even, etc. And realistically, if you are going to do anything with your life, you’d be wise to have it done before you reach 50, because most people’s health is not as good at 50 as it was in their 20's, and it’s usually downhill from 50.
Let’s examine these 80 years - and I’m speaking in general terms here. The first 1/4 of them (1-18), you are either minding your parents or rebelling against them. And the last 3/8 of them (50-80), you don’t have the health and abilities you had when you were younger - it’s called getting older. So you have the ages from 20 to 50 to do whatever it is you are going to do. Thirty years of prime time. And on average you sleep 10 of them. And you average about 10 of them at work. So you really only have about 10 good years of your own time, time to “do your thing” as they used to say. Your time is a very valuable asset, one that cannot be replenished, it is finite - when it’s gone, it’s gone. Yet when it comes to your valuable, irreplaceable time, I’ve read many posts here where you quote the Bible and explain it’s meaning to Christians. This is futile - and hence illogical - on your part. Here’s what I base this on. Christians know the Bible tells them that an unbeliever cannot understand God’s word, so they are not going to listen. And since all others are non-believers, what do they care what the Bible says or means? Seems like you are wasting a good part of “your” 10 years in this process, and again this is valuable time that logic would seem to dictate should be used wisely, not wasted. I think logic would say, “Use your time wisely and productively. Get out and make some money, that’s what this life is about.”
Could it be that you are not living your life according to the logic that you say it is based on?
And you may say that the math is wrong, that you can post here while at work, so that gives you 20 years of your own time, instead of 10. Ok, good math but poor morals. Surely moral people would not be accepting a paycheck for working while they were posting on a football site. It seems illogical to say you have morals and then cheat your employers out of work they are paying you to do.
While reading these posts, it seems to me (and I could be wrong about this) there is an underlying arrogance in some of the atheist’s posts. I may have misinterpreted this and if so, I apologize. So that made me wonder about these things and here’s what I think may be a possible reason for this.
By applying the same standard of proof that you require of God, it would say that there is no other life in the universe besides what exists on earth. There is no proof whatsoever of life on other planets - you can’t detect any with your 5 senses and there is nothing that could be attributed to aliens that can’t be explained in some other way. And I’m not saying life on other planets doesn’t exist, but by applying your standard of proof for God, it doesn’t. By default, mankind becomes the most powerful species in the universe, therefore I could see the logic in striving to become the most powerful man on the planet.
And I base man being the most powerful being in the universe on man’s ability to destroy almost all of life on this planet. If any other life form has displayed this ability I’m unaware of it. And greatness that is measured in terms of ability to destroy is pretty sad. However, if you perceive man is the most powerful being in existence, and if that would help me understand the perceived arrogance.
Of course, I’m on here posting also. As far as cheating my employer, I work for myself. And as for wasting my valuable time, I think any waste of a valuable asset is bad, but time is just a passing thing to me.
“He has also set eternity in the hearts of men” Ecclesiastes 3:11
IPorange
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Hmm, I'll play. But I'll try to be a bit more succinct, since I only have 10 good years of life:
1. Religion affects everyone, whether they believe in it or not. To say an atheist shouldn't bother ever broaching the topic is silly. We all live on the same planet.
2. You make assumptions about the goals and moralities of atheists that are totally erroneous, as they are based on an assumption that certain qualities or traits are mutually exclusive to divine inspiration. Money isn't much of a motivation for me, beyond a certain obvious level of comfort. I have chosen a career path that stimulates me intellectually and interests me, knowing full well I will never make a great living. I like what I do, and i like educating people, so I'm happy. One doesn't need God to keep from living out a hedonistic fantasy world. That's a fallacy that perhaps you should reflect on, given that it apparently contradicts with where you think values and morality comes from.
3. Show me a god. I can show you a planet with life. See the difference? Do I think there are aliens? I don't know I do know there is life, and I do know there are types of life on this planet that could possibly exist in places very different from Earth (extremophiles). I know the universe is a gigantic place. But that's neither here nor there. If alien life was discovered under the ice of Europa tomorrow, you'd still believe in God and I still wouldn't. Same if it were not found in our lifetimes, or ever for that matter.
4. I am not sure how powerful man really is in the grand scheme of things. I view teh world from the perspective of geologic history, and man is but a blip on the radar, who may yet wipe itself out. Again, you make an assumption that (1) atheists think man is the most powerful being in existence and (2) that power is measured by the "ability to destroy." These are assumptions originating from your projections, not from atheists, per se. You tell me which is more "arrogant," since that seems to hold some weight to you: Mankind is a special creation of God in his own image that has been set apart and above from the rest of creation, including divine angels, or that mankind is just another multicellular organism in a long line of them, that developed through a process of natural selection from outward pressures, sometimes occurring by seemingly random chance. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
And of course, this is yet another discussion that assumes a theistic reality is a Christian theistic one. That's a hell of an assumption in itself.
1. Religion affects everyone, whether they believe in it or not. To say an atheist shouldn't bother ever broaching the topic is silly. We all live on the same planet.
2. You make assumptions about the goals and moralities of atheists that are totally erroneous, as they are based on an assumption that certain qualities or traits are mutually exclusive to divine inspiration. Money isn't much of a motivation for me, beyond a certain obvious level of comfort. I have chosen a career path that stimulates me intellectually and interests me, knowing full well I will never make a great living. I like what I do, and i like educating people, so I'm happy. One doesn't need God to keep from living out a hedonistic fantasy world. That's a fallacy that perhaps you should reflect on, given that it apparently contradicts with where you think values and morality comes from.
3. Show me a god. I can show you a planet with life. See the difference? Do I think there are aliens? I don't know I do know there is life, and I do know there are types of life on this planet that could possibly exist in places very different from Earth (extremophiles). I know the universe is a gigantic place. But that's neither here nor there. If alien life was discovered under the ice of Europa tomorrow, you'd still believe in God and I still wouldn't. Same if it were not found in our lifetimes, or ever for that matter.
4. I am not sure how powerful man really is in the grand scheme of things. I view teh world from the perspective of geologic history, and man is but a blip on the radar, who may yet wipe itself out. Again, you make an assumption that (1) atheists think man is the most powerful being in existence and (2) that power is measured by the "ability to destroy." These are assumptions originating from your projections, not from atheists, per se. You tell me which is more "arrogant," since that seems to hold some weight to you: Mankind is a special creation of God in his own image that has been set apart and above from the rest of creation, including divine angels, or that mankind is just another multicellular organism in a long line of them, that developed through a process of natural selection from outward pressures, sometimes occurring by seemingly random chance. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
And of course, this is yet another discussion that assumes a theistic reality is a Christian theistic one. That's a hell of an assumption in itself.
IPorange
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KnoxVillain
Big Orange Faithless
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KnoxVillain
Big Orange Faithless
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MWR
The Road not Taken.
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No on knows for sure how much time they have.
Didn't say anything about anyone's right to discuss religion. I said it seemed like a waste of time to me, and thus illogical.
I didn't question your morals, I said morals can be costly. And from what I seen and heard, most people say money makes the world go around.
Show me alien lifeforms. I didn't say they didn't exist, I just said by your burden of proof you apply to God, they don't. And (by your qualifications) they don't exist and there God doesn't either, that moves man to the top.
What species or being or whatever can you show me - you know, concrete proof - that is more powerful than man?
You got a lot of theistic going on there.
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