Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

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#2,027
#2,027
jjay2518 said:
Thanks for the response. So then by current rules would someone who is attracted to people of the same sex and is forthcoming about these feelings but not practicing homosexual behavior be allowed to be a minister?
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Being tempted does not make you a sinner. Also temptation and lust are two different things. I have been delivered from drug addiction for 18 years, but I am still tempted from time to time yet I have never given in. We are supposed to bring ourselves into subjection. A unmarried or married minister has to do the same thing. I have a really good friend who was a practicing homosexual for nearly 40 years. He witnesses that your love of God has to be bigger than your need to fornicate.(he also says it is a lie on his part to say he was never attracted or had feelings for any woman) If something happens to my wife, I doubt I will ever be with another woman. No one says it is easy. Overcoming our basest desires is our biggest trial. The temptation to commit homosexual fornication is no greater than mine to commit adultery. I feel for people who have that temptation to deal with, but we all do. Jesus gave up Heaven and bore his cross for me. It is not that hard to suffer my cross of self denial for him. One other thing.."We have not a high priest who cannot be touched by the feelings of our infirmities, but he was in all points tempted like as we are..yet without sin."
 
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#2,028
#2,028
Catbone said:
I feel bad for the gay people that can't help that they're gay and attracted to others of the same sex. Guess they'll all burn in hell for having that "problem" which us straight people will never understand :/
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Catbone, if I may ask, what are your thoughts on Sodom and Gomorrah?
 
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#2,031
#2,031
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#2,032
#2,032
Im trying to understand this obama edict about transgender children in school using whichever bathroom they identify with. Are there a lot of transgender children?!?!
 
#2,033
#2,033
jjay2518 said:
Aren't all sins supposed to be equal in the eyes of God? If so then how is anyone allowed to be a minister? How is being gay different from being an adulterer or a coveter?
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You will find that answer in Timothy as it applies to church leadership.
 
#2,034
#2,034
Catbone said:
I feel bad for the gay people that can't help that they're gay and attracted to others of the same sex. Guess they'll all burn in hell for having that "problem" which us straight people will never understand :/
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Having sex outside of marriage, already defined, is sin. Doesn't matter who or what it is with. You choose to accept what scripture says or you don't. It's on you to obey or not. I don't have to answer for your choices, you don't answer for mine. If a believer, you just don't take scripture out of context and pretend you are giving an educated opinion because if you lead somebody else into sin you are as guilty as they are. So trolling with Jesus as your subject can be dangerous if who you are trolling takes you seriously. FWIW.

The burning in hell part is rather disingenuous for somebody quoting scripture out of context to play devil's advocate. The only soul that goes to hell is the one that denies Jesus Christ as Savior. We all sin. We all are tempted. Christ was tempted. Being tempted is not sin. Depending on your love and devotion for Christ you will seek a path that leads you away from sin and toward him. I hope you are on that journey.
 
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#2,035
#2,035
InVOLuntary said:
Basically what was mentioned earlier. Allowing gay ministers and such. By allowing it, you are condoning it, which is wrong imo.
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They kicked the can down the road to 2020 this morning. They are going to establish a commission (committee - lol) to study the issue and regulations.

They acknowledge they are losing thousands of members monthly in the US because of the issue. Meanwhile, Africa and eastern Europe are exploding in conservative membership. By this time 4 years from now they will have the majority of delegates despite the political maneuvering. So the liberal faction will be faced with a choice to stay or go. They were hoping to force the action their way now. But not all is well in paradise if it happens because as Volgee posted there are social/sexual principles that are not the same in parts of Africa as they are in the States.

We left the UMC for a couple of reasons, one of which was this issue. Being that we believe scripture is inerrant - even considering the issue at all was not acceptable to us. Their continuing softening of their approach toward abortion rights was another reason. The other reasons for our leaving were all local congregation related.
 
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#2,037
#2,037
VolGee4 said:
It is my understanding that some of the African nations criminalize homosexuality. Yet, they allow polygamy. While the ministry is growing there, we have many cultural, political, and even spiritual differences that have to be reconciled. It isn't just the Methodist Church that is declining on membership; it's Christians and church-goers altogether.

I heard our bishop speak on all of this in February, and the leadership seems to expect a decline in membership over this subject. However, his belief was that the Methodist church will not split based on its organization and how the church owns the property for many of the congregations.

It's an issue that isn't going away.
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For sure. And hasn't since the 1970's when I accepted my first role in a local congregation. My best friend back then was a delegate that was elected to four GC's. It has only become more heated with each passing year.

From what I understand, your response is true in parts of Africa - not all. Most areas are moving toward the more traditional view as their tribal cultures modernize and traditional Christian teaching takes hold. But stuff like the liberal sexuality view taking root only gives the polygamist an argument in their resistance. So are they removing Bishops that represent the sexuality liberals when not approving Bishops for those that have polygamists? Nope.

The UMC has been a huge source of Christian influence in Africa for many decades. They even have large land holdings and college in Zimbabwe as an example. It has been committed, rightly so, to bringing the message to that continent as they have eastern Europe. I have many pastoral and leadership friends in the UMC who have committed great amounts of time and effort toward this mission. Yet, the people they minister to seem to understand scripture in a more conservative way and are not buying into the liberal viewpoint at all. The UMC leadership has known this for decades, yet, now are faced with making a decision about what they as leaders and delegates of the UMC believe. They developed their own conundrum. IMO the constant compromising and reinterpretation has caused the downturn in overall membership, my friend. The people lose sight of who the denomination is and what it represents over time. The leaderships like to use the word "evolving" when it comes to changing their views and positions, which seems to coincide with what the Supreme Court decides on a social issue all too often. When they do that people think, "What?! For decades you told us the church's position on that issue was X. You put it in writing in the Book of Discipline. Now you are saying it is Y. Tomorrow you will probably say it is Z. See ya!" FWIW, the older ministers are retiring in droves.

The property and pensions thing has been in discussion for decades. They will have to cede ownership to the local churches or to the conferences and then have membership votes. Probably have to recharter or go the route of the SBC and stay an association. In my opinion, it would be best to vote by conference since they are geographical representations that would most closely reflect the majority view for each area. There would be a better chance at staying relevant and have less property division issues.

In my mind it is OK to split if it reduces disunity. New seeds will fall to the ground - you know the parable. Despite all of the 'what's happening now approaches'; membership and attendance still decline other than with non-denominational Christian churches, which has grown for the most part. I am OK with that. Not all that interested in cultural Christianity. If a person is a Christian in name only, they may do more harm that good for the cause of Christ. What the Lord said in Revelation about Laodicea comes to mind. His command in Matthew was to make disciples. That speaks a need for real commitment to me.

:hi:
 
#2,038
#2,038
Vols4us said:
They kicked the can down the road to 2020 this morning. They are going to establish a commission (committee - lol) to study the issue and regulations.

They acknowledge they are losing thousands of members monthly in the US because of the issue. Meanwhile, Africa and eastern Europe are exploding in conservative membership. By this time 4 years from now they will have the majority of delegates despite the political maneuvering. So the liberal faction will be faced with a choice to stay or go. They were hoping to force the action their way now. But not all is well in paradise if it happens because as Volgee posted there are social/sexual principles that are not the same in parts of Africa as they are in the States.

We left the UMC for a couple of reasons, one of which was this issue. Being that we believe scripture is inerrant - even considering the issue at all was not acceptable to us. Their continuing softening of their approach toward abortion rights was another reason. The other reasons for our leaving were all local congregation related.
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Thanks buddy for the info. Maybe I need to move to Africa or Eastern Europe.

I grew up in this church, was married in this church, my children were baptized in this church. It's hard to move on when you have that much history with a church. I have many friends in this church. I've seen this church grow and expand greatly.

Churches are like families and there are squabbles from time to time but for the most part it's a very good church. I would hate to leave but I will not hesitate to do so.
 
#2,039
#2,039
Catbone said:
I don't know. Maybe there really are just tons of christians in denial. I did read this
Homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorrah - OnFaith
I don't know either way what is wrong and what is right. Discussing and playing devils advocate opens up a lot of view points which is interesting to me.
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Thanks for the response. Just wanted to see what your thoughts were on that since it is, as the article stated, usually the first Biblical reference/story people will bring up when talking about the topic of homosexuality.

And just to make it known I believe that it is a sin.
 
#2,040
#2,040
zhangliao04 said:
Thanks for the response. Just wanted to see what your thoughts were on that since it is, as the article stated, usually the first Biblical reference/story people will bring up when talking about the topic of homosexuality.

And just to make it known I believe that it is a sin.
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Yeah no problem! I totally understand and respect what you believe by the way. :hi:
 
#2,042
#2,042
InVOLuntary said:
Thanks buddy for the info. Maybe I need to move to Africa or Eastern Europe.

I grew up in this church, was married in this church, my children were baptized in this church. It's hard to move on when you have that much history with a church. I have many friends in this church. I've seen this church grow and expand greatly.

Churches are like families and there are squabbles from time to time but for the most part it's a very good church. I would hate to leave but I will not hesitate to do so.
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I fully understand. It can be painful with all of that history.

We were in ours for 30 years. Our daughter was born a year after joining. She met her husband there and I walked her down the aisle there. I worked in nearly every role in the church, youth trips, mission trips, Project Katrina relief teams, taught SS, etc. Worked closely at times with the conference (bishop) on a couple of projects as well as each DS at various times including on pastoral appointments. Helped found an evangelistic organization with a pastor/evangelist. Turned down additional conference level requests because I was simply out of time while still working. My wife was also very active in other areas of the church. Like yours it was a roller coaster at times. All that history, yet, we felt we had to act on our convictions. There was a sense of great relief when we did, like a huge burden had been lifted.

You will know if/when it is time. We continue to pray for the well being of the UMC and that whatever happens honors the Lord and pleases him. Will pray for your situation, brother.
 
#2,045
#2,045
Catbone said:
I'm on the fence personally. But thanks for the discussion!
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I am a Cat fan. Love what you bring to the board.

If a person claims to be a Christian, the position he/she will take on this and other social issues will usually be directly related to his/her view of the Bible itself. Either a person believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God written by man through the impact of the Holy Spirit, or, they take it as a collection of inspirational books that are historical in nature that are to be used as a guide to living as God would desire us to live. The later group does not believe the Bible should be taken literally or that it is without error.

Be blessed.
 
#2,048
#2,048
Vols4us said:
For InVOLuntary and VolGee in particular, as well as for anybody else that is interested. This lays out the view of a very astute, highly respected, highly accomplished Methodist on the situation. He is the the current President of Asbury Seminary.

An Open Pastoral Letter to United Methodists | Timothy Tennent
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Thanks for sharing. I have been a member at the same Methodist Church for 32 years since I was a small child. I did a lot as a youth but hadn't been as consistent in attending and participating until the last couple of years now that I am married with kids. These are issues that I haven't really discussed or studied a whole lot since I am still relatively young.

That said, my church is a fairly large congregation and a great community. There are many long time friends that attend with me who will be there for the rest of my life. While the Methodist Church as a whole is going through this, I have discussed with friends that we just want to be satisfied with our congregation.

For years, the Methodist Church seems to have taken the middle ground on many issues as they try to be inclusionary. Wesley was about spreading the Gospel to the common man. This is a topic that is very divisive and very difficult not to pick a side. I understand the conundrum.

I don't have all of the answers, but I enjoy the message I receive every Sunday. I am a part of a young leadership group that just started this week as our pastor wants "younger people" in the church to continue to grow in their spiritual journey while also preparing us to be future leaders. We will meet once a month, study the Gospel, and use Jesus' teachings to be better leaders. Excited about the opportunity.

Didn't mean to ramble, but I still have faith in the church. Everyone shares different opinions. But as I think I have seen you say before, it doesn't matter what group or denomination you are with as long as you are studying and following God's word and trying every day to be a better Christian.
 
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#2,049
#2,049
VolGee4 said:
Thanks for sharing. I have been a member at the same Methodist Church for 32 years since I was a small child. I did a lot as a youth but hadn't been as consistent in attending and participating until the last couple of years now that I am married with kids. These are issues that I haven't really discussed or studied a whole lot since I am still relatively young.

That said, my church is a fairly large congregation and a great community. There are many long time friends that attend with me who will be there for the rest of my life. While the Methodist Church as a whole is going through this, I have discussed with friends that we just want to be satisfied with our congregation.

For years, the Methodist Church seems to have taken the middle ground on many issues as they try to be inclusionary. Wesley was about spreading the Gospel to the common man. This is a topic that is very divisive and very difficult not to pick a side. I understand the conundrum.

I don't have all of the answers, but I enjoy the message I receive every Sunday. I am a part of a young leadership group that just started this week as our pastor wants "younger people" in the church to continue to grow in their spiritual journey while also preparing us to be future leaders. We will meet once a month, study the Gospel, and use Jesus' teachings to be better leaders. Excited about the opportunity.

Didn't mean to ramble, but I still have faith in the church. Everyone shares different opinions. But as I think I have seen you say before, it doesn't matter what group or denomination you are with as long as you are studying and following God's word and trying every day to be a better Christian.
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Amen, brother. Peace be with you and your congregation. Your post is why this situation is so sad and painful to me. We had many wonderful years in the UMC and we loved the freedom of thought and expression within the confines of scripture and its context without all the man created dogma. Wesley's words brought me back to the church and redirected me to my own devotion to the Lord, scripture, and helping others on that path. I know it is unsolicited, but, based on your post my advice is to stay the course and listen to the Holy Spirit's urgings. My hope is that all followers of Christ will turn back to the Lord and stop chasing the world's rabbits. We all need to stop focusing on those voices that would divide us, allow them to condemn themselves by their own choices, while going the way of Christ. The UMC needs to make long needed organizational changes and commitments before it all falls apart. Kicking the can every 4 years is not the answer.

Our local issues stemmed from your comments about Wesley taking the message of the Gospel to the common man. The congregation had changed to the point of making it all about themselves and trying to draw people inside the walls by offering more programs, while not focusing on the Gospel. They seemingly still cannot understand why it has not been blessed and that the attendance and participation continues to decline significantly year after year while being located in a high population growth area. When we continuously countered with returning to the scripture grounded roots of Wesley, we were met with stone cold resistance and actually insulted. That was the final straw. It was time to move on.

You have always expressed solid reasoning and a good heart on here in your posts on this and other subjects, VolGee. Much respect. Will continue to pray for your situation.
 
#2,050
#2,050
Vols4us said:
Amen, brother. Peace be with you and your congregation. Your post is why this situation is so sad and painful to me. We had many wonderful years in the UMC and we loved the freedom of thought and expression within the confines of scripture and its context without all the man created dogma. Wesley's words brought me back to the church and redirected me to my own devotion to the Lord, scripture, and helping others on that path. I know it is unsolicited, but, based on your post my advice is to stay the course and listen to the Holy Spirit's urgings. My hope is that all followers of Christ will turn back to the Lord and stop chasing the world's rabbits. We all need to stop focusing on those voices that would divide us, allow them to condemn themselves by their own choices, while going the way of Christ. The UMC needs to make long needed organizational changes and commitments before it all falls apart. Kicking the can every 4 years is not the answer.

Our local issues stemmed from your comments about Wesley taking the message of the Gospel to the common man. The congregation had changed to the point of making it all about themselves and trying to draw people inside the walls by offering more programs, while not focusing on the Gospel. They seemingly still cannot understand why it has not been blessed and that the attendance and participation continues to decline significantly year after year while being located in a high population growth area. When we continuously countered with returning to the scripture grounded roots of Wesley, we were met with stone cold resistance and actually insulted. That was the final straw. It was time to move on.

You have always expressed solid reasoning and a good heart on here in your posts on this and other subjects, VolGee. Much respect. Will continue to pray for your situation.
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Thank you, sir. It's interesting that you mention membership at your past church. Mine is currently around 3500. It grew quite a bit in the last 15 years. When our current pastor came on about 6 years ago, he realized that membership was a "revolving door." He did a survey and found that people quit attending within 3 months of becoming a member. They weren't assimilating.

Our pastor has now required taking a couple of classes and meeting certain staff members before becoming a member. It allows new members to understand the foundation of the UMC and encourage attendance at SS and other activities. Membership is probably slower now, but obviously, the hope is to gain folks who will remain committed.

I always enjoy reading what you post. I don't always agree, but I respect it. No offense to your age, but I consider you one of our "senior members" who I like to read on the many subjects on this forum. God Bless.
 
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