Recruiting Discussion

[Vhvol]

BTO - please for just one second try and stop defending CRB. You never get out of that mode once you have decided you like the coach. You didn't with Cuonzo and you're doing the same thing here with CRB.

I'm not disappointed with this team whatsoever. We still don't have the talent we could have on this roster and that needs to change going forward. It looks like Barnes agrees with me based on his sudden interest in more highly rated players.

I don't know why we can't watch this team, realize they are playing well and still say "hey we need a couple more ballers."

You don’t understand that yes obviously we need to recruit well. But we will not find may players better than the ones we have. If that North Carolina team was sophomore versions of Berry/Pinson/Williams. We win that game. Same as Villanova sophomore version of Brunson/bridges/divencenzo we win that game. These kids now are will improve each game. I believe by the end of the year we will be a completely different team in the final 5 mins

 

[bleedingTNorange]

BTO - please for just one second try and stop defending CRB. You never get out of that mode once you have decided you like the coach. You didn't with Cuonzo and you're doing the same thing here with CRB.

I'm not disappointed with this team whatsoever. We still don't have the talent we could have on this roster and that needs to change going forward. It looks like Barnes agrees with me based on his sudden interest in more highly rated players.

I don't know why we can't watch this team, realize they are playing well and still say "hey we need a couple more ballers."

This has nothing to do with me defending Barnes, in fact if you’ve paid attention I stated the coaching could’ve been questioned yesterday...so it would actually appear that you’re as blinded opposite of what you accuse me of to take an unbiased stance.

You’ve yet to answer my question...more ballers to accomplish what? What happens if we make the S16 this year and are ranked almost all year? What happens if then we add more ballers but only win 15 games?

Two of our better “ballers” aka highly rated guys are Yves Pons and Jalen Johnson? How much credit do either of those guys deserve for this being a ranked team?

 

[cncchris33]

Okay and if we want to compete for higher than just making the tournament, then we need more talent/scorers. That is Ziti’s point.

The team is good and Barnes has done a great job. They are most likely gonna make the tourney and that’s very good. But if we want to do more than that, we need more scoring for the guard positions. A guy like Simons brings that.

Tennessee has the talent to play with anyone now. There isn't a single team that scares me the way Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State would scare me in a football matchup. We can play with anyone in the country. We just have a much smaller margin for error than the UNCs, Villanovas, and Dukes of the college basketball world.

That said, Jimmys and Joes still matter. Our talent isn't such that we can roll out our C game and hope to beat a UNC. We have to play better than them to mitigate the talent differential. And we can do that. We didn't do it yesterday, but we didn't play our best either. Hopefully now, with the program stabilized, Barnes can improve the talent pool with more physically talented players who have the same mindset as the guys we have now.

 

[cncchris33]

We had this discussion preseason and iirc you said something to the extent of “if they make the tournament easily then they have enough talent”, has that bar now moved?

In other words, what would need to happen for at the end of the year you to say, I’m happy with the roster assembled? Just because you lose a game or don’t win it all doesn’t mean you lack talent, very rarely is the national champ the most talented team.

I think it's fair to say that our talent needs to improve to the point that we can beat UNC without having to play our best game of the year. That's probably Ziti's point. Our margin for error in top-10 matchups is far less than UNC's.

It isn't a criticism of Barnes, and I think that with the dumpster fire extinguished, the program on solid footing, that he will begin to target and land higher rated/more talented players. Those players are hopefully hungry and selfless like the guys we currently have.

 

[BigZiti09]

This has nothing to do with me defending Barnes, in fact if you’ve paid attention I stated the coaching could’ve been questioned yesterday...so it would actually appear that you’re as blinded opposite of what you accuse me of to take an unbiased stance.

You’ve yet to answer my question...more ballers to accomplish what? What happens if we make the S16 this year and are ranked almost all year? What happens if then we add more ballers but only win 15 games?

Two of our better “ballers” aka highly rated guys are Yves Pons and Jalen Johnson? How much credit do either of those guys deserve for this being a ranked team?

To do what? Win more basketball games. Win more games against teams with better players. Win more.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

It seems to me that the recruiting is steadily improving as is the win-loss record. We add 4 in the next two years and those spots are much more attractive than the first 10 that Barnes filled.

 

[BigZiti09]

We had this discussion preseason and iirc you said something to the extent of “if they make the tournament easily then they have enough talent”, has that bar now moved?

In other words, what would need to happen for at the end of the year you to say, I’m happy with the roster assembled? Just because you lose a game or don’t win it all doesn’t mean you lack talent, very rarely is the national champ the most talented team.

Find the bolded post. I was pretty careful to not paint myself into that corner that you kept trying to paint me in.

The bottom line for me is always gonna be...."make the tourney first and foremost." But I doubt I said that if we make the tournament then we don't need to add better players. We need better players than what we've got. That doesn't mean we don't have good players.

 

[k-town_king]

You don’t understand that yes obviously we need to recruit well. But we will not find may players better than the ones we have. If that North Carolina team was sophomore versions of Berry/Pinson/Williams. We win that game. Same as Villanova sophomore version of Brunson/bridges/divencenzo we win that game. These kids now are will improve each game. I believe by the end of the year we will be a completely different team in the final 5 mins

I see what Z is saying.

But if we played those teams with the sophomore version they would probably win. Those teams keep talented upperclassmen. So if we played them when the guys you are talking about were sophomore we would be dealing with other guys too. We aren't to that level yet. The good teams have talented upperclassmen and young developing guys. We have mostly younger guys.

A talent like Simons would negate that difference imo.

 

[zjcvols]

I see what Z is saying.

But if we played those teams with the sophomore version they would probably win. Those teams keep talented upperclassmen. So if we played them when the guys you are talking about were sophomore we would be dealing with other guys too. We aren't to that level yet. The good teams have talented upperclassmen and young developing guys. We have mostly younger guys.

A talent like Simons would negate that difference imo.

Exactly. The biggest weakness on the team right now is a lack of a guard than can score consistently. Turner and Admiral are shooters, Bone isn't there yet as a finisher and Daniel is new and 6'0. Barnes' recruiting is paying off and now the next step is getting an elite recruiter, hopefully Simons is that guy.

 

[VolGee4]

I think we need more talent.

Butch almost beat Saban in 2015. Did he have the talent to win the game? Yes. What was the difference in the game though? Talent.

I will wait to evaluate all of this at the end of the year. But if you look at the two teams that we lost to (and had leads), they both had one thing in common: a 3+ year guard who will be an All-American. In fact, Villanova's top 4 scorers are at least in their third year. I word it that way because they have 6 players on the roster that took redshirt years, which is unheard of in college basketball. Bridges and Booth are redshirt juniors. It is valuable experience.

UNC's best players are Berry, Pinson, Maye, and Williams, who made the final 3. 2 are seniors while 2 are juniors.

I think we have the talent (would be nice to add another piece or two), but our impact players are 9 games into their sophomore year. They got beat by All-Americans. They finally took a step in the Purdue game, when Turner made a clutch 3 in regulation and then won in overtime.

This team will lose a game that it shouldn't, but I expect them to beat almost all the lower level and midlevel conference teams. I think we end up with 20 wins and enjoy a trip to the NCAAT.

 

[edyeary]

Exactly. The biggest weakness on the team right now is a lack of a guard than can score consistently. Turner and Admiral are shooters, Bone isn't there yet as a finisher and Daniel is new and 6'0. Barnes' recruiting is paying off and now the next step is getting an elite recruiter, hopefully Simons is that guy.

Yeah we have talent at guard but no leadership.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

To do what? Win more basketball games. Win more games against teams with better players. Win more.

So have more Pons & Johnson’s and less Daniel’s and Williams?

Having more ballers doesn’t guarantee anything, I guess that’s my point...majority on here said they wanna be a perennial tourney team, imo it would appear this strategy can produce that. You disagree?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Find the bolded post. I was pretty careful to not paint myself into that corner that you kept trying to paint me in.

The bottom line for me is always gonna be...."make the tourney first and foremost." But I doubt I said that if we make the tournament then we don't need to add better players. We need better players than what we've got. That doesn't mean we don't have good players.

So what point would you say our roster is adequate? Only if we were to cut down the nets?

I thought that expectation was to make the dance, if they do that then I’m not sure how the roster that met expectations can be criticized?

 

[BigZiti09]

So have more Pons & Johnson’s and less Daniel’s and Williams?

Having more ballers doesn’t guarantee anything, I guess that’s my point...majority on here said they wanna be a perennial tourney team, imo it would appear this strategy can produce that. You disagree?

Jalen Johnson was ranked 130. Just because he is ranked higher than the rest of the team doesn't mean he was ranked high. I don't know what we have with Pons. Hard to trust his ranking. He was an unknown until late and played overseas and had 4 schools go after him. We will see how good he is once healthy and hopefully contributing.

Unless a top 30 player I don't expect a ton from them until they are sophomores and older. So I'm not expecting Pons to light the world on fire this year. I'm not expecting Barnes to land a bunch of McDonald's all americans. I just expect to mix it up with some top 50 guys and land one.

You confuse me wanting better players as me thinking only rankings matter. Makes it easier for you to argue if you shift it to an argument you can win. That's your plan here I'm sure. Grant Williams is an example of a guy who should have been top 100 no doubt. Rankings don't mean everything.

Jalen Johnson at 130 isn't the kind of talent I am hoping to add.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Jalen Johnson was ranked 130. Just because he is ranked higher than the rest of the team doesn't mean he was ranked high. I don't know what we have with Pons. Hard to trust his ranking. He was an unknown until late and played overseas and had 4 schools go after him. We will see how good he is once healthy and hopefully contributing.

Unless a top 30 player I don't expect a ton from them until they are sophomores and older. So I'm not expecting Pons to light the world on fire this year. I'm not expecting Barnes to land a bunch of McDonald's all americans. I just expect to mix it up with some top 50 guys and land one.

You confuse me wanting better players as me thinking only rankings matter. Makes it easier for you to argue if you shift it to an argument you can win. That's your plan here I'm sure. Grant Williams is an example of a guy who should have been top 100 no doubt. Rankings don't mean everything.

Jalen Johnson at 130 isn't the kind of talent I am hoping to add.

Well you’ve made a habit out of criticizing the rankings of players he was getting, so I assumed that’s what you meant. So what exactly is a “baller” then in your opinion? Recruiting rankings don’t matter so wait 2 years and decide if the guy is good or not?

I’m not sure what better players means, if you’re not referring to recruiting rankings? Every team in America has a couple guys on their roster that don’t play, and almost every team has attrition, so every team in America obviously can use some “better players”.

 

[BigZiti09]

Currently Barnes is targeting a five star to fill the only spot in the 2018 class. We hosted 3 top 100 players from the 2019 class along with a top 50 guy in the 2018 class.

Guess what Barnes is trying to add to this roster? More talented players.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Currently Barnes is targeting a five star to fill the only spot in the 2018 class. We hosted 3 top 100 players from the 2019 class along with a top 50 guy in the 2018 class.

Guess what Barnes is trying to add to this roster? More talented players.

Are you going to let Basilio know or should I?

 

[BigZiti09]

Well you’ve made a habit out of criticizing the rankings of players he was getting, so I assumed that’s what you meant. So what exactly is a “baller” then in your opinion? Recruiting rankings don’t matter so wait 2 years and decide if the guy is good or not?

I’m not sure what better players means, if you’re not referring to recruiting rankings? Every team in America has a couple guys on their roster that don’t play, and almost every team has attrition, so every team in America obviously can use some “better players”.

Baller = guys who are impact players, difference makers, someone that other teams have to specifically prepare for and worry about. We have 1 guy who fits that description and he's an undersized post player. Nothing wrong with that but we need better players to up our ceiling. Especially on the perimeter.

I don't know how ANYONE can argue against it. Barnes has obviously started to zero in on more highly rated players as of late so it looks like he agrees with me. I really don't understand why anyone would argue otherwise.

 

[BigZiti09]

Are you going to let Basilio know or should I?

I'd wait til he actually lands them before I went bragging about guys who visited.

 

[k-town_king]

Barnes did what was needed. Get good players that weren't super highly rated but could develop. Develop them for the base and now shoot for the top players to sprinkle in with some 3 and four year guys.

 

[BigZiti09]

Barnes did what was needed. Get good players that weren't super highly rated but could develop. Develop them for the base and now shoot for the top players to sprinkle in with some 3 and four year guys.

Yep. He's got a really solid base. Just hope he's able to add some real help to this team before we have to rebuild again after the 2019-20 season.

 

[k-town_king]

Yep. He's got a really solid base. Just hope he's able to add some real help to this team before we have to rebuild again after the 2019-20 season.

Looking at who we are pursuing, it seems Barnes is now going after the higher rated guys.


Were are we with James Wiesman? I haven't heard anything in a while.

 

[cncchris33]

Well you’ve made a habit out of criticizing the rankings of players he was getting, so I assumed that’s what you meant. So what exactly is a “baller” then in your opinion? Recruiting rankings don’t matter so wait 2 years and decide if the guy is good or not?

I’m not sure what better players means, if you’re not referring to recruiting rankings? Every team in America has a couple guys on their roster that don’t play, and almost every team has attrition, so every team in America obviously can use some “better players”.

I have criticized Ziti's opinion on the team, it's makeup, and Barnes's approach. He has softened it a bit over time now that he has seen results of that plan. Some may say that he just accepted the obvious after the fact, which was that Barnes had a plan, stuck with it, and it worked. But, at least he isn't still fighting a losing battle in an effort to be right.

Some would say that you are being intentionally obtuse at this point with regards to his stance on the roster. He has made his point pretty clear to me, and I hold a similar opinion to yours. Barnes has rebuilt the roster with underrated and unknown talents. That is pretty undeniable at this point. He also seems to have shifted his recruiting focus to more well-known commodities. That's a good thing. He feels he has a chance to get those guys now, and he has some success to sell to them where he didn't two years ago. Improving the roster from top to bottom isn't admitting that what we have now is garbage. It is admitting that we have areas where we can improve. As an example, I think we only have one current starter who would start on all of the other 13 SEC teams, and that is Grant Williams. I think we can all agree that the recruiting experts missed on him. I can't say the same for anyone else on our roster right now.

The pieces of this team seem to embody the notion that the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

 

[k-town_king]

Yep. For example Bone is ok. But what if brought in a Colin Sexton? We would maybe be undefeated with an elite player.

 

[JRVOL11]

Yep. For example Bone is ok. But what if brought in a Colin Sexton? We would maybe be undefeated with an elite player.

We would for sure be undefeated with Sexton . He would’ve got us buckets when we were in scoring droughts .