Questions from a Millennial?

[46yrvol]

Fulmer had his flaws no doubt, and they led to him being removed.

One thing I don't get, (in a general sense from some) is damping what he did here overall in some attempt to explain the current situation as better than others see it.

If it were me I would be doing the opposite until Jones proves worthy of the comparison. Main reason is Jones is being lauded for the same results that many Vol fans *****ed about when Fulmer provided.

Fulmer's record in the ninties will always be legendary but the perception was that the program was on a downward trajectory in the 2000s. It's very questionable if Jones can take the program where we would like it to be but he took over after this team had experienced 3 straight losing seasons. After winning 5 in year one, then 7 then 9, I was all good as long as each season was better than the last. 2016 is where we've experienced bitter disappointment, making the coming season the one that will tell us if he can have this team on the rise again. If not and he is let go, it will still have been a good hire in retrospect because he did get us off the mat and competing again. Plus there will be a better foundation here so the the program will be more attractive to coaching prospects.

 

[BeecherVol]

Fulmer's record in the ninties will always be legendary but the perception was that the program was on a downward trajectory in the 2000s. It's very questionable if Jones can take the program where we would like it to be but he took over after this team had experienced 3 straight losing seasons. After winning 5 in year one, then 7 then 9, I was all good as long as each season was better than the last. 2016 is where we've experienced bitter disappointment, making the coming season the one that will tell us if he can have this team on the rise again. If not and he is let go, it will still have been a good hire in retrospect because he did get us off the mat and competing again. Plus there will be a better foundation here so the the program will be more attractive to coaching prospects.

Don't really disagree with any of that.

Jones has improved the program since the Dooley debacle. Going into year 5 we shouldn't be using Dooley to prop Jones. That fact that it's required is enough to question if he has hit his ceiling.

 

[Webbvol32]

I myself was going into 98 believing we would be NC. I always believe UT is going to kick arse till proven mistaken then I believe it is a conspiracy.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Did you or did you not hang your entire argument on one season where every team is taking that extra risk?

Which begs to question, is that a fluke or is it something UT is doing that is aiding the high number?

Every team takes the risk BUT while some teams come out with no injuries, a few will sustain multiple serious and/or season ending injuries to multiple players. This renders an inability to shut down the corner or have effective line play...eg. the loss of remaining depth in more than one skill group.

Then..by your harping on the subject you don't care for facts and reasons. Only look for a place to lay blame.

 

[Nashvol2]

I myself was going into 98 believing we would be NC. I always believe UT is going to kick arse till proven mistaken then I believe it is a conspiracy.

Honestly I was thinking the same thing back then. Every year was our year in the off season and especially during fall camp. We did have the Florida monkey to get off our back but the general feel was that we had a chance to win it all every year. 98 might have been the least likely but the only real pessimism came from Spurrier having our number.

 

[volfanbill]

Don't really disagree with any of that.

Jones has improved the program since the Dooley debacle. Going into year 5 we shouldn't be using Dooley to prop Jones. That fact that it's required is enough to question if he has hit his ceiling.

Letting him off the hook with that excuse this past season was highly questionable imo

 

[BeecherVol]

Every team takes the risk BUT while some teams come out with no injuries, a few will sustain multiple serious and/or season ending injuries to multiple players. This renders an inability to shut down the corner or have effective line play...eg. the loss of remaining depth in more than one skill group.

Then..by your harping on the subject you don't care for facts and reasons. Only look for a place to lay blame.

Who's blaming anybody?

Go back and read the original remarks and you might better understand my position. It's obvious you are confused at this point.

 

[BeecherVol]

Letting him off the hook with that excuse this past season was highly questionable imo

It's time for that comparison to end.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

How many teams was UF not scoring on during that stretch?

All I know is that we scored enough to win most of those games if we had held them to 21 points or so.

 

[BeecherVol]

All I know is that we scored enough to win most of those games if we had held them to 21 points or so.

And all I know is by comparison they were lighting the scoreboard most every game they played. UT wasn't the exception.

We've had some pretty bad defenses over the years since then.

 

[UtahVol]

Those teams in the 90s had ridiculous depth. The 1998 team had Jamal Lewis, Travis Henry and Travis Stephens. Jamal Lewis got injured five games into the season and Tennessee still won the national title. Those were the days when Georgia and South Carolina were just assumed wins.

Three plays will always stand out for me from that year--not including Clint Storner:

1. In the opener Tennessee was facing a 4th and long at Syracuse and Tee ran for it and basically saved the game;
2. Again Auburn there was a play where Tee got sacked and fumbled and the ball rolled to the Tennessee 1 where Auburn recovered. Tennessee stuffed them four times in a row. That for me was the event which persuaded me Tennessee might be a team of destiny.
3. In the Fiesta Bowl Marcus Outzen was trying to run around the edge and Raynoch Thompson absolutely blew him up right before he went out of bounds.

Lots of memories. Let's not forget the poor Tostitos dude trying to get Phil to eat the Tostitos during the award ceremony and Phil just blowing him off. The guy tried and tried to get eating Tostitos to be the next "I'm going to Disneyland" thing after winning the Fiesta Bowl, but Phil ignored the poor dude.

 

[zeppelin128]

The 5 seasons that I was a student at U.T., from 1967 through 1971 football seasons, we lost 6 regular season games in 5 years. I believe that we only lost one home game, and it was by one point to Auburn.

My collegiate years at UT were not so kind. From 2007-2011, we were 33-31...

The joke while I was in college was that we were becoming a basketball school. Back to back National Championships for the Lady Vols with a record of 158-22. Tournament appearances, an SEC Championship, and or first Elite Eight for the Vols with a record of 122-53.

 

[jakez4ut]

My collegiate years at UT were not so kind. From 2007-2011, we were 33-31...

The joke while I was in college was that we were becoming a basketball school. Back to back National Championships for the Lady Vols with a record of 158-22. Tournament appearances, an SEC Championship, and or first Elite Eight for the Vols with a record of 122-53.

i was there 94-97, and i think we lost 2 home games to FL, 1 to Bama....and that may be it? every other home game i attended was a W while i was student. good times. it's a shame the students over the last 10 years haven't had that experience more.

hell, i was spoiled.

 

[jakez4ut]

on the subject of the additional game....kind of interesting to see some of the opinions on this....cause i thought it was readily accepted that the 12th game was a cupcake....a glorified scrimmage, extra homecoming type game.

those of you wanting to say it's an additional risk, well, sure it is. last year we lost Sutton against Ohio and FL lost it's qb to N tex. but in both cases, do you really think either of those games should have gotten to the point where you had to play starters as long as they did?

no. you didn't. i didn't either. to me, that's all on the home team...from a mentality standpoint to go out and make yourself take care of business instead of just thinking you can show up and take care of business.

in the vast majority of those types of games, they're usually laughers by half time, and the 2nd half is a time for your 2, 3 and 4 deep to get game reps, and protect and build your depth.

bottom line, those games being "high risk", if they are, has more to do with the program paying the other $750k to show up, than it does with the one getting paid.

 

[AM64]

It being the off season we all obviously have a lot more time to think. I often find myself in the off-season looking reasons of optimism regardless of the state of the program.

Today while thinking I came across an interesting thought. Being as young as I am I didn't get to enjoy the 1998 Championship as much as some of you did. Which is what brought me to the question I'm about to ask. (Note this has no relation to the upcoming season, rather just a question of curiosity)

What was the mental state of the program and the fans going in to the 1998 season?

What were fans opinion of Fulmer, Manning's last game, and just what the next season held? Were there already National Championship talks at hand or was Manning's departure and inability to win a National Championship, for some, a sign of the decline to come?

Figure this would spark some fun conversation and reminiscence of the "Good Ol' Days".

Thank for those who reply.

I had to stop and think a bit after reading your question and some responses. I was a freshman in 1964 - the year that Doug Dickey came to town and started UT football back on the road to significance, and I remember those days more clearly and more fondly than the '90s when I was away from UT and dealing with work, family, and getting by.

With hindsight, I'd tell you that if you are a student or at least still close enough to UT to feel a part of things, do that and don't let what might have been or could have been cloud your memories. For all we know, you could be witnessing a rise to prominence or a continuing struggle of top teams in a different world of football parity.

It's the struggle that makes wins and life meaningful; what comes easily has less significance. Watch the struggle on the field; those memories will stick longer. It's like history - the why and how is a lot more significant in the long run than a date or the score - exact dates and scores (except to teachers of history) are basically trivia. My first AL game is nothing about the score but about how well a very undermanned with little hope of a win played - in a Neyland Stadium that looked so different in those days.

 

[ConantheVolbarian]

His record in his 3rd year as HC was the same as CBJ's, though it could've been better or worse with an extra game to play. He didn't win the SEC East or the SEC until his 6th year.

Yes, that may be true, but the SEC East was better back then and Florida was a legit NC contender. The SEC East has sucked azz since Jones has been here and he still couldn't win the East last year when UT was far and away the most talented and experienced team in the division. Try to compare Jones to Fulmer in a way that paints Jones in a good way if you want, but it doesnt change the facts. The difference between Fulmer and Jones is Fulmer would have taken the team we had last year to Atlanta. That's the only comparison that matters.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Yes, that may be true, but the SEC East was better back then and Florida was a legit NC contender. The SEC East has sucked azz since Jones has been here and he still couldn't win the East last year when UT was far and away the most talented and experienced team in the division. Try to compare Jones to Fulmer in a way that paints Jones in a good way if you want, but it doesnt change the facts. The difference between Fulmer and Jones is Fulmer would have taken the team we had last year to Atlanta. That's the only comparison that matters.

Witch Doctor has no Fulmer hate but lets REAL. He didnt get us to an SEC championship year till Year 6(Sixs) won it the next year and won again in 2001 and backed into the next two times w ties . Witch Doctor say lets Recap
6 seasons (AFTER Majors, not Dooley before Fulmer took us anywhere..Witch Doctor say you should remember others beside you where around lol AND we only have a couple years here in there that were glorious..the Dynasty myth....is just that, a myth Google backs this up and few on here ever use it (?)

BNL

 

[ConantheVolbarian]

Witch Doctor has no Fulmer hate but lets REAL. He didnt get us to an SEC championship year till Year 6(Sixs) won it the next year and won again in 2001 and backed into the next two times w ties . Witch Doctor say lets Recap
6 seasons (AFTER Majors, not Dooley before Fulmer took us anywhere..Witch Doctor say you should remember others beside you where around lol AND we only have a couple years here in there that were glorious..the Dynasty myth....is just that, a myth Google backs this up and few on here ever use it (?)

BNL

Again,
The 6 years statistic is irrelevant and replacing Dooley vs Majors is irrelevant. The fact is Butch Jones has had teams that could have and should have won the East the past 2 years. The East has been a complete dumpster fire, especially last year. The Vols were by far the most talented and experienced East division team last year and blew it again. You cannot say the same about Fulmer. In his era, division rival Florida was a powerhouse that won a national title. That is the reason it took him 6 years to finally win the East. The door has been wide open for Butch to win the East the past 2 years with no strong teams in the East and he hasn't gotten it done. It's amazing to see the mental gymnastics people will go through to defend Butch's lack of success. Again, different circumstances call for different standards. And the fact is Butch has had teams with the talent to compete at a high level and is playing in a historically weak East division.In other words, Butch has failed to win the East in ideal circumstances (team stocked with talent and experience competing in a lame duck East division). Doesn't that tell us all we need to know?

 

[orangebloodgmc]

My collegiate years at UT were not so kind. From 2007-2011, we were 33-31...

The joke while I was in college was that we were becoming a basketball school. Back to back National Championships for the Lady Vols with a record of 158-22. Tournament appearances, an SEC Championship, and or first Elite Eight for the Vols with a record of 122-53.

I feel your pain. I was there during the Bill Battle yrs. hmy:

 

[jakez4ut]

Again,
The 6 years statistic is irrelevant and replacing Dooley vs Majors is irrelevant. The fact is Butch Jones has had teams that could have and should have won the East the past 2 years. The East has been a complete dumpster fire, especially last year. The Vols were by far the most talented and experienced East division team last year and blew it again. You cannot say the same about Fulmer. In his era, division rival Florida was a powerhouse that won a national title. That is the reason it took him 6 years to finally win the East. The door has been wide open for Butch to win the East the past 2 years with no strong teams in the East and he hasn't gotten it done. It's amazing to see the mental gymnastics people will go through to defend Butch's lack of success. Again, different circumstances call for different standards. And the fact is Butch has had teams with the talent to compete at a high level and is playing in a historically weak East division.In other words, Butch has failed to win the East in ideal circumstances (team stocked with talent and experience competing in a lame duck East division). Doesn't that tell us all we need to know?

Not much here to disagree with.

I'd just say to your last question, no it doesn't. And that's only due to 2 reasons...the instability our overall leadership situation has experienced and the staff overhaul.

So we'll see how those dynamics play out.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Witch Doctor has no Fulmer hate but lets REAL. He didnt get us to an SEC championship year till Year 6(Sixs) won it the next year and won again in 2001 and backed into the next two times w ties . Witch Doctor say lets Recap
6 seasons (AFTER Majors, not Dooley before Fulmer took us anywhere..Witch Doctor say you should remember others beside you where around lol AND we only have a couple years here in there that were glorious..the Dynasty myth....is just that, a myth Google backs this up and few on here ever use it (?)

BNL

Few on here dare post it. I fully agree.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Again,
The 6 years statistic is irrelevant and replacing Dooley vs Majors is irrelevant. The fact is Butch Jones has had teams that could have and should have won the East the past 2 years. The East has been a complete dumpster fire, especially last year. The Vols were by far the most talented and experienced East division team last year and blew it again. You cannot say the same about Fulmer. In his era, division rival Florida was a powerhouse that won a national title. That is the reason it took him 6 years to finally win the East. The door has been wide open for Butch to win the East the past 2 years with no strong teams in the East and he hasn't gotten it done. It's amazing to see the mental gymnastics people will go through to defend Butch's lack of success. Again, different circumstances call for different standards. And the fact is Butch has had teams with the talent to compete at a high level and is playing in a historically weak East division.In other words, Butch has failed to win the East in ideal circumstances (team stocked with talent and experience competing in a lame duck East division). Doesn't that tell us all we need to know?

It's amazing the mental gymnastics some people will go through to prove Butch is a failure. Your hero inherited a team with 5X the talent that Butch got. Your hero took 6 years to win the SEC Championship. By your definition, he wasted 3 years of Peyton Mannings life. Butch has had to rebuild an 85 man roster from ground zero. Fulmer started on the 65th floor.

I don't like last year. Was it CBJ's fault, mostly. His biggest two failures last year were letting the team run their own conditioning and allowing Hurd to be on the team from day one. Better conditioning and no Hurd and we are having a different discussion. Be that as it may, Hurd was a poison that is personally responsible for at least 2 losses. Injuries didn't help the others.

 

[jakez4ut]

It's amazing the mental gymnastics some people will go through to prove Butch is a failure. Your hero inherited a team with 5X the talent that Butch got. Your hero took 6 years to win the SEC Championship. By your definition, he wasted 3 years of Peyton Mannings life. Butch has had to rebuild an 85 man roster from ground zero. Fulmer started on the 65th floor.

I don't like last year. Was it CBJ's fault, mostly. His biggest two failures last year were letting the team run their own conditioning and allowing Hurd to be on the team from day one. Better conditioning and no Hurd and we are having a different discussion. Be that as it may, Hurd was a poison that is personally responsible for at least 2 losses. Injuries didn't help the others.

Assume you're right for a second...


Then how does the head coach allow those players and THAT player cause such a spiraling that it costs him 2 games, and not be held responsible?

I mean, assuming you're right.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Assume you're right for a second...


Then how does the head coach allow those players and THAT player cause such a spiraling that it costs him 2 games, and not be held responsible?

I mean, assuming you're right.

I don't disagree completely. I have come around with his statement earlier this year that "he" was going to now be responsible for the workouts etc., not the team. I had heard he was doing that and didn't realize the depth of the failure until he mentioned it. That is his fault. However, there were injuries this year that conditioning would not fix and also, I don't see "how" he would have booted Hurd before fall camp. That is where he should have been gone. I'm not even sure it was known or at least widely know then Hurd was going to turn out ot be the abject failure that he was.

But, I am not ready to declare the guy a failure just yet. He knew not what he was getting into in the SEC. Majors, Philmer, and to some extent Kiffin knew what was coming. Fooley had an inkling but I don't think he was anywhere near prepared.

This constant comparison of Butch's early years to Philmer's is disingenuous at best and just flat out saying that he is done because the perception that he isn't as good as Phil at this time is ridiculous. Like I said, CBJ started in the basement trying to go 85 floors, CPF started on the 65th or higher.

 

[Brasszilla]

I don't disagree completely. I have come around with his statement earlier this year that "he" was going to now be responsible for the workouts etc., not the team. I had heard he was doing that and didn't realize the depth of the failure until he mentioned it. That is his fault. However, there were injuries this year that conditioning would not fix and also, I don't see "how" he would have booted Hurd before fall camp. That is where he should have been gone. I'm not even sure it was known or at least widely know then Hurd was going to turn out ot be the abject failure that he was.

But, I am not ready to declare the guy a failure just yet. He knew not what he was getting into in the SEC. Majors, Philmer, and to some extent Kiffin knew what was coming. Fooley had an inkling but I don't think he was anywhere near prepared.

This constant comparison of Butch's early years to Philmer's is disingenuous at best and just flat out saying that he is done because the perception that he isn't as good as Phil at this time is ridiculous. Like I said, CBJ started in the basement trying to go 85 floors, CPF started on the 65th or higher.

he's damned if he do, damned if he don't. could you imagine the uproar if he booted hurd before the season? so he'd be wrong for keeping him on the team and he'd been labeled wrong for booting him... a lot of our brethren seem to have very selective memory lol