Practice dates

[sjt18]

Hysterical? your attitude is part of the problem, some countries have eliminated the virus within their borders due to hysterical response.

Which countries would those be? Your blind gullibility IS the problem...

Japan? Nope. They did much less than us and haven't had a fraction of the problems. S Korea? Nope. They specifically protected the old and aggressively quarantined those with symptoms. They've managed it MUCH better than we have.

And yes. It has been HYSTERIA, not science, that has driven the radical response. It seems like the millionth time I've had to post this... but here is CDC EXPLICITLY saying they DO NOT count certain flu related deaths that Dr Birx EXPLICITLY demanded by counted as Covid deaths plus many, many more. If we counted flu associated deaths the way Covid positive deaths have been counted... we would have over 100,000 flu deaths every year.

Notice the second point. Flu is INFREQUENTLY listed as a cause of death for people who die of flu-related illnesses. Our national officials have DEMANDED that Covid-19 be listed even if it "clearly" is not the cause of death. They are "doctoring" the numbers and have from the start.

CDC Novel H1N1 Flu | CDC Estimates of 2009 H1N1 Influenza Cases, Hospitalizations and Deaths in the United States

How do we react to the flu? We do NOT place healthy people on what amounts to house arrest. We don't spend 4-5 Trillion in deficit dollars. We don't throw 35 million people into unemployment. We do not shrink the economy by 7% or whatever it is now. We don't destroy the careers, businesses, and lives of millions of people. We don't risk the deaths of despair that follow economic and social calamity.

Nope. We take measured, common sense steps to limit the spread and care for those most vulnerable. Exactly what was needed for Covid-19... and we got a purely media narrative driven political response instead that will ultimately do FAR more damage in both economics and life than the virus.

 

[sjt18]

Hysterical? your attitude is part of the problem, some countries have eliminated the virus within their borders due to hysterical response.

Here's a story from just today. While our officials were spending their time shutting down the economy and quarantining healthy people... they left the vulnerable exposed or worse yet intentionally exposed them as NY did.

We KNEW these people were in danger. But rather than forcusing our efforts on them and patients under physicians care for multiple and severe health conditions... we were arguing about how close we should get to someone in Walmart.

There was a German expert when all this began who said we should lock down nursing homes and the elderly for 4 months. He then suggested we let the virus run its course and especially with children. Even then we knew that children weren't being impacted very much if at all. His projection was that we would have herd immunity very quickly and could more or less go back to life as usual. He was all but certainly CORRECT.

‘A national disgrace’: 40,600 deaths tied to US nursing homes

 

[cgrish]

This is a remarkably callous attitude. You are outright saying that you don't care if the players get sick as long as you get your football games. Get some perspective.

I think what he was saying; is that the age they are, and their health condition covid19 is no more than the common cold as far as how it affects them.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

I think what he was saying; is that the age they are, and their health condition covid19 is no more than the common cold as far as how it affects them.

What about the people they spread it to?

 

[cgrish]

The IFR comes from the CDC website coupled with numerous studies now showing that the actual number of past/current infections in the US are more than 10 times the number of "confirmed" cases.

I posted proof for the overcounting. Do you need the video of Dr Birx as well? How about the testimonies of doctors who have largely been ignored by the narrative driven media when they spoke out after being pressured to assign Covid as a cause of death when it was not?

If you are truly interested in facts and aren't intent on simply handwaving again... then I'll find the article that gave the stats on NYC during the outbreak. Much has been made about trailers for dead bodies but that was largely because they did not have procedures for safe handling of corpses. They were unsure if morgue and funeral home people would be in danger. The Navy ship and the overflow facilities that were constructed went virtually unused. The MSM has very quickly dropped NYC from the conversation as the numbers really began to come out. It was particularly inconvenient when reports showed the majority of new cases were people who had obeyed shelter in place orders.

You are 100% correct, most of the information from the news media as well as the so called experts, were very inaccurate. If a person would just listen to Dr. Birx you would see how the fatality rate was way overstated, and then the corrections that followed. States and cities got more money from the fed if death was ruled covid19, so if they had someone die who had covid19 symtoms they were counted as covid19. Example there are 50,000 deaths each yr. from pneumonia, so I am sure all of these were stated as covid19. All this scare was from mis-informed experts who changed as covid19 went along. Imo all of this lockdown was very unnecessary. As you stated in nyc most of the new cases were those in lockdown, not the ones that were not in lockdown.

 

[cgrish]

What about the people they spread it to?

It has already been proven covid19 is not as deadly as the flu, the fatality rate was very skewed for covid19. I don't want anyone being sick, but you can't just lock down forever. And yes they will spread it, just as anyone would with the flu. A scare tactic by the media and many of the experts.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

It has already been proven covid19 is not as deadly as the flu, the fatality rate was very skewed for covid19. I don't want anyone being sick, but you can't just lock down forever. And yes they will spread it, just as anyone would with the flu. A scare tactic by the media and many of the experts.

Please don't post lies.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Fringe website link incoming.

 

[cgrish]

Please don't post lies.

If you will read the cdc actual reports you will see it is not lies. If you get your information from the news media you will not have the facts.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

If you will read the cdc actual reports you will see it is not lies. If you get your information from the news media you will not have the facts.

The NYC study implied a death rate of at least 0.5%. That's over 5X as deadly as the flu.

 

[sjt18]

Please don't post lies.

I am not sure you can prove it definitively because of the "counting". But it is looking more and more likely that Covid-19 is similar at worst and more likely less deadly than the flu.

This is DIRECTLY from CDC's website:

Under-Counting of Flu-Related Deaths
CDC does not know exactly how many people die from seasonal flu each year. There are several reasons for this:

• • First, states are not required to report individual seasonal flu cases or deaths of people older than 18 years of age to CDC.
  • Second, seasonal influenza is infrequently listed on death certificates of people who die from flu-related complications.
  • Third, many seasonal flu-related deaths occur one or two weeks after a person’s initial infection, either because the person may develop a secondary bacterial co-infection (such as a staph infection) or because seasonal influenza can aggravate an existing chronic illness (such as congestive heart failure or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease).
  • Also, most people who die from seasonal flu-related complications are not tested for flu, or they seek medical care later in their illness when seasonal influenza can no longer be detected from respiratory samples. Influenza tests are most likely to detect influenza if performed soon after onset of illness.
  • For these reasons, many flu-related deaths may not be recorded on death certificates.

Consider each point.

"First", Our officials have gone to great pains to assure that EVERY state reports ALL Covid positive deaths... even giving financial incentive. Dr Birx EXPLICITLY instructed health officials to list deaths as "Covid" not only when they die of "complications"... but simply if they die while Covid positive.

"Second", according to CDC's own WORDS... the flu is only infrequently put on death certificates even when the flu complicates something like congestive heart failure resulting in death. ALL similar deaths are being counted as "Covid" deaths. Some states do not report flu deaths at all. Oregon for instance says that since most flu related deaths have another primary cause... they don't report them to CDC. Oregon IS reporting ALL Covid positive fatalities as Covid deaths per Birx's instruction.

"Third", health officials have all but assured that deaths even in the instances given above are counted "Covid".

"Also", testing has been a major emphasis and when in doubt... it is being called Covid.

Lastly, some states are going to extraordinary lengths to make sure Covid is on any death certificate where it can be justified.


If flu deaths were counted like Covid deaths it is VERY likely we would have well over 100k per year. It is a VERY common way for an elderly person to die... and is often just recorded as "natural causes". You cannot take one massively undercounted virus and another massively overcounted virus... and say that one is definitely more deadly than the other.

 

[sjt18]

The NYC study implied a death rate of at least 0.5%. That's over 5X as deadly as the flu.

Only if the information I posted above would not dramatically increase the number of "flu deaths" AND... if the denominator is correct... which it most likely isn't. Many of the "surge" of new cases are coming in because contact tracing is turning up asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases that otherwise would not have been reported. They've only touched the tip of the iceberg.

The denominator is a closer estimate than it used to be... but it is very likely that MANY people have had it and not been confirmed.

Let's put it this way. It is estimated that 60 million Americans had the flu two years ago. It has been claimed that Covid-19 is "far" more communicable than the flu.... yet in 4 months we only have 2.1 million cases? Something doesn't add up. I suspect that MORE people have been infected and that the "models" have once again failed by projecting a higher risk of spread than what the field data now supports.

 

[Sara Clark]

Folks, let's agree to disagree. What happens with football, happens. Let's all stay healthy using whatever methods you choose, or not. GBO!!!

It almost feels like instead of "New Years" resolutions, a bunch of people stood around stabbing voodoo dolls.

 

[sjt18]

Folks, let's agree to disagree. What happens with football, happens. Let's all stay healthy using whatever methods you choose, or not. GBO!!!

It almost feels like instead of "New Years" resolutions, a bunch of people stood around stabbing voodoo dolls.

This is much bigger than football. A study now claims that 42% of the layoffs will become permanently job elimination. While social distancing, lockdowns, mass use of mask, etc has not been the subject of peer reviewed study, the fact of deaths of despair HAVE. Just on unemployment alone, a 1% increase historically results in a .99% increase in suicide and an over 3% increase in drug related deaths. The claims that threw us into this panic were based on "models"... projections from the effects of this MASSIVE overreaction are based on science.

Lives have been destroyed. Savings have been destroyed. Family businesses have been destroyed. People will die from a wide range of causes besides the two above because of the economic and social damage that many think we should just "accept" because "officials" said so.

Many of us care too much to do that.

 

[Sara Clark]

This is much bigger than football. A study now claims that 42% of the layoffs will become permanently job elimination. While social distancing, lockdowns, mass use of mask, etc has not been the subject of peer reviewed study, the fact of deaths of despair HAVE. Just on unemployment alone, a 1% increase historically results in a .99% increase in suicide and an over 3% increase in drug related deaths. The claims that threw us into this panic were based on "models"... projections from the effects of this MASSIVE overreaction are based on science.

Lives have been destroyed. Savings have been destroyed. Family businesses have been destroyed. People will die from a wide range of causes besides the two above because of the economic and social damage that many think we should just "accept" because "officials" said so.

Many of us care too much to do that.

I'm thinking you didn't understand my thought process...I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact, I agree. But some don't, and that's ok. All I'm saying is let them do them and what works for them. If staying in the house is it...so be it.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Only if the information I posted above would not dramatically increase the number of "flu deaths" AND... if the denominator is correct... which it most likely isn't. Many of the "surge" of new cases are coming in because contact tracing is turning up asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases that otherwise would not have been reported. They've only touched the tip of the iceberg.

The denominator is a closer estimate than it used to be... but it is very likely that MANY people have had it and not been confirmed.

Let's put it this way. It is estimated that 60 million Americans had the flu two years ago. It has been claimed that Covid-19 is "far" more communicable than the flu.... yet in 4 months we only have 2.1 million cases? Something doesn't add up. I suspect that MORE people have been infected and that the "models" have once again failed by projecting a higher risk of spread than what the field data now supports.

We probably have 10-20 million cases, which puts the death rate between 0.5 and 1. Covid-19 was the leading cause of death in the country for the last two months. The NY study surveyed the general population. It was likely not skewed because everyone feared they had been exposed, therefore no selection bias. Even in hard hit NYC, the antibody test turned up only 20% infection rate.

The main thing you can look at is total deaths though. Look at total deaths for a place like NY (with only 20% infection rate) and see how those deaths compare to a year ago. At one point they were running about 50% higher. I haven't checked in a few weeks. I am assuming they have come down a bit thianks to a slower spread.

We will likely have a good summer/early fall (except in the desert) because the transmission has been linked to lower humidity. Then when humidity decreases in November, it will go up again. Hopefully, a vaccine will not be far behind. I have yet to see any reliable data that suggests a death rate lower than the flu. You cannot look at data from places that have not been hit hard for your denominator of total cases because there is a huge selection bias (people who fear exposure are much more likely to get the test.)

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

We probably have 10-20 million cases, which puts the death rate between 0.5 and 1. Covid-19 was the leading cause of death in the country for the last two months. The NY study surveyed the general population. It was likely not skewed because everyone feared they had been exposed, therefore no selection bias. Even in hard hit NYC, the antibody test turned up only 20% infection rate.

The main thing you can look at is total deaths though. Look at total deaths for a place like NY (with only 20% infection rate) and see how those deaths compare to a year ago. At one point they were running about 50% higher. I haven't checked in a few weeks. I am assuming they have come down a bit thianks to a slower spread.

We will likely have a good summer/early fall (except in the desert) because the transmission has been linked to lower humidity. Then when humidity increases in November, it will go up again. Hopefully, a vaccine will not be far behind. I have yet to see any reliable data that suggests a death rate lower than the flu. You cannot look at data from places that have not been hit hard for your denominator of total cases because there is a huge selection bias (people who fear exposure are much more likely to get the test.)

And none of this to say that I agree with continued lockdowns. It is past time to let people be free. At the same time, those that are out in public ridiculing people for wearing masks should be punched out.

 

[sjt18]

We probably have 10-20 million cases, which puts the death rate between 0.5 and 1. Covid-19 was the leading cause of death in the country for the last two months. The NY study surveyed the general population. It was likely not skewed because everyone feared they had been exposed, therefore no selection bias. Even in hard hit NYC, the antibody test turned up only 20% infection rate.

Again, the death count is based on instructions that BADLY skew the numbers and especially when the natural comparison to the flu is made.

The main thing you can look at is total deaths though. Look at total deaths for a place like NY (with only 20% infection rate) and see how those deaths compare to a year ago. At one point they were running about 50% higher. I haven't checked in a few weeks. I am assuming they have come down a bit thianks to a slower spread.

That may tell you if you are within range. But NY is a special case not only in the US but in the world. Why they have performed so much worse than anyone else... will likely be studied for years. Tokyo is larger and more densely populated than NYC with as much or more use of mass transit. Yet the whole nation of Japan has less than 1,000 deaths.

We will likely have a good summer/early fall (except in the desert) because the transmission has been linked to lower humidity. Then when humidity increases in November, it will go up again. Hopefully, a vaccine will not be far behind. I have yet to see any reliable data that suggests a death rate lower than the flu. You cannot look at data from places that have not been hit hard for your denominator of total cases because there is a huge selection bias (people who fear exposure are much more likely to get the test.)

You cannot take the outlier and make generalizations as you appear ready to do either.

I have very little confidence in a vaccine. As far as I can find, there are no coronavirus vaccines for any other strain. News came out this morning that a generic steroid has proven effective as a treatment in severe cases in Britain. The development of treatments is more hopeful than vaccines. Unfortunately, people die while trial and error occur. Models and lab experiments are proving significantly less than reliable during this pandemic.

As for the "reliable data"... would you call what has been used to terrify the public into obedience "reliable data"? They are CLEARLY counting Covid deaths MUCH differently than the flu... and then they compare to the flu and claim it is more deadly. I posted the section multiple times where CDC acknowledges that they undercount flu deaths and how. I have posted where deaths are being counted as Covid related simply because the person was positive at the time of death... with the virus having no significant bearing on their death.

There are two things that the "officials" should do that they haven't done... and by not doing them have made me and many others very suspicious. At best, they are withholding information to "herd" us into doing what they consider the "right thing". At worst, they just like the power rush.

One, be honest about the death numbers and how they compare to flu deaths. Commit to counting flu and Covid deaths by the same standard. Divide deaths into at least 3 categories- died from, contributed to death, and coincidental to death. CDC's website tells us only one of those- about 7% of those counted as Covid deaths "died from" the virus.

Two, begin educating the public on who is vulnerable and how to protect them without these "throw a blanket over it" solutions which are just as likely to do harm as good. CDC now has pretty good data on which comorbidities are most like to combine with Covid-19 to kill someone. You cannot draw any significant conclusions due to how they present the information on their website but you can tell that they have collated the information and have it. They could relate that to age, weight, and other demographics in a way that each of us could answer a questionnaire with our doctor or on line to understand our personal risks. We could protect ourselves and those around us MUCH better armed with that kind of information. The information is there. So why scare rather than educate?

I instinctively do not trust top down, heavy handed, "just so" commands. The "experts" that were supposed to be trusted once said that Jews were subhuman.... that "negroids" were less evolved than other "races". Experts told us that NYC would be under water by now due to global warming... that would have remedied the Covid outbreak, huh?

I'm a skeptic. I want to know why. I want to know why my team members make the decisions they make. I have to be careful "managing" certain bosses because I have to understand why before jumping on board. I can support plans that I don't personally like... when I understand the reasoning. Fortunately that seems to be the culture of my current company.

 

[sjt18]

And none of this to say that I agree with continued lockdowns. It is past time to let people be free. At the same time, those that are out in public ridiculing people for wearing masks should be punched out.

Have you seen anyone physically attacked for wearing a mask? It has occurred to those who refuse to wear one. I don't make a habit of ridiculing people I meet in the store anyway. There's often a story behind the story. Interesting that you think someone should be "punched out" though... because they disagree with healthy people wearing masks. Hopefully you aren't being literal but is that the right attitude even if you're being figurative?

There are many qualified health "experts" who still say the masks are of limited or no use in preventing the virus and have the potential to harm the person wearing the mask. Again, this was one of those "just so" types of commands without the "this peer reviewed study shows that mass mask wearing reduces spread by XX%".

There are no peer reviewed studies for any of the measures they've taken. The social distancing idea according to some comes from a Bush era post-pandemic review. Supposedly, the idea came from an 8th grader's science project and has never been studied or peer reviewed. The costs are pretty high to base this kind of response on speculation. People will die because of the overreaction to Covid-19. People have suffered personal and financial losses... their lives have been destroyed.

 

[sjt18]

I'm thinking you didn't understand my thought process...I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact, I agree. But some don't, and that's ok. All I'm saying is let them do them and what works for them. If staying in the house is it...so be it.

Sorry if I was abrupt with you. I should not have been.

If I do me... then they can still "do them". Unfortunately, if they "do them" ... it imposes rules on me that do not allow me to "do me". Does that make sense? For instance on masks, I haven't seen anyone saying that we should ban the use of masks in public by people concerned about the virus. I have seen many saying that masks should be "required" by the government.

I am very tolerant and supportive of people following their convictions as long as they assume the consequences.... and don't try to shift them to others. If you want to keep your business closed then do... just don't expect the rest of us to support you financially. If you don't want to go out to a restaurant that chooses to open then more power to you. If you choose something in between then great.

If you feel wearing a mask provides a significant level of protection then wear one. If you don't then don't.

If you are scared that someone is going to give it to you then don't go near them... frequent stores that cater to those fears by requiring masks and distancing or whatever.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Have you seen anyone physically attacked for wearing a mask? It has occurred to those who refuse to wear one. I don't make a habit of ridiculing people I meet in the store anyway. There's often a story behind the story. Interesting that you think someone should be "punched out" though... because they disagree with healthy people wearing masks. Hopefully you aren't being literal but is that the right attitude even if you're being figurative?

There are many qualified health "experts" who still say the masks are of limited or no use in preventing the virus and have the potential to harm the person wearing the mask. Again, this was one of those "just so" types of commands without the "this peer reviewed study shows that mass mask wearing reduces spread by XX%".

There are no peer reviewed studies for any of the measures they've taken. The social distancing idea according to some comes from a Bush era post-pandemic review. Supposedly, the idea came from an 8th grader's science project and has never been studied or peer reviewed. The costs are pretty high to base this kind of response on speculation. People will die because of the overreaction to Covid-19. People have suffered personal and financial losses... their lives have been destroyed.

Sorry, I don't have time to respond to all of your points today.

I have not seen anyone attacked personally but read accounts. And a poll showed that about 25% of mask wearers had been made fun of. I will not being doing any punching, no. But I think that is about what the people that do these things deserve--no more or less. I personally want to visit my elderly grandparents (ages 89-92) regularly. I will wear a mask when I am in public to minimize my chance of giving it to them. I would appreciate if others would do likewise. Any common sense can see that masks would slow transmission. There were two haircutters who had the virus and wore masks and didn't spread it to anyone.

Yes, I do understand the economic fallout. It is severe. The stock market is currently drunk (even after the record fall.)

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Sorry, I don't have time to respond to all of your points today.

I have not seen anyone attacked personally but read accounts. And a poll showed that about 25% of mask wearers had been made fun of. I will not being doing any punching, no. But I think that is about what the people that do these things (mock rule followers) deserve--no more or less. I personally want to visit my elderly grandparents (ages 89-92) regularly. I will wear a mask when I am in public to minimize my chance of giving it to them. I would appreciate if others would do likewise. Any common sense can see that masks would slow transmission. There were two haircutters who had the virus and wore masks and didn't spread it to anyone.

Yes, I do understand the economic fallout. It is severe. The stock market is currently drunk (even after the record fall.)

 

[EZE]

This is a remarkably callous attitude. You are outright saying that you don't care if the players get sick as long as you get your football games. Get some perspective.

No, he is not saying that. Maybe you need to stop being overly sensitive.

 

[EZE]

What about the people they spread it to?

To the reasonable folks trying to bring logic and pragmatism to the discussion, you can’t reason with this....

 

[Vol524]

The biggest difference between the flu and Covid-19 is, when you get over the flu you are well. With Covid-19 it can cause lasting lung problems. I for one do not want to drag an oxygen bottle around with me for the rest of my life.