Pope: There Is No Hell

#452
#452
Orange_Crush said:
I'm interested in your response to my last statement. You've failed to show that the KJV authorized is "the perfect Bible", yet you lambaste other who respect it, but don't consider it "the perfect" Word of God.

You've disparaged the Bible in its original languages, and trumped those original language autographs with use of the KJV in their stead. Yet you're yet to show why we should trust the translators' words as God's words instead of the actual words, in the original languages, that the Holy Spirit directly inspired the original authors to use.

All you've provided was:



I'll forego the obvious nit as to ask what the original language stated there.

But I will point out that He has accomplished that VERY THING by preserving the manuscripts in their original languages. He had thousands upon thousands of copies of the Bible, in their original languages, in such way that we can compare them and get a very good idea of exactly what the originals said. It wasn't one line of manuscripts--or even one single, original autograph of each book--which could be hidden away under lock and key and then changed with no one knowing the difference.

God preserved the original language and intent in an "opensource" way.

So, defend your claim, Big. You're calling everyone else out as false teachers, false prophets, etc... Well, except for your human indoctrination into a flawed KJV-only theology, explain to us why the KJV is the fulfillment of that verse, as opposed to the lineage of manuscripts we have in the languages of their authors.

ETA: What should have been obvious--that part of this promise is that His word is trustworthy. He will "KEEP" it. He doesn't lie. We can trust it.
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The last time we had this discussion, I gave you plenty of evidence and just like this time, you did nothing but scoff a try to treat me like I'm an idiot because I believe we have a copy of the word of God.
The Alexandrian line of Greek text, I believe it to be a flawed text. All of the new translations lean heavily on Westcott and Hort's works of which are greatly flawed. Westcott and Hort are heretics.
 
#453
#453
BigO95 said:
The last time we had this discussion, I gave you plenty of evidence and just like this time, you did nothing but scoff a try to treat me like I'm an idiot because I believe we have a copy of the word of God.
The Alexandrian line of Greek text, I believe it to be a flawed text. All of the new translations lean heavily on Westcott and Hort's works of which are greatly flawed. Westcott and Hort are heretics.
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So, which Greek and/or Latin texts did you ever believe to be accurate?

Did the translators of the KJV have access to these texts?

If so, where did they disappear to over the past 400 years?

If not, do you think their translations are a faithful representation of what was in the Greek/Latin texts to which they had access?

If so, then why can't we point to those Greek/Latin texts?

If not, then the KJV translators were not really translators, they were individuals that received a special revelation from God. If that is the case, why did they use the word "wine"?

The circus you have given us would make Barnum and Bailey proud.
 
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#454
#454
BigO95 said:
The last time we had this discussion, I gave you plenty of evidence and just like this time, you did nothing but scoff a try to treat me like I'm an idiot because I believe we have a copy of the word of God.
The Alexandrian line of Greek text, I believe it to be a flawed text. All of the new translations lean heavily on Westcott and Hort's works of which are greatly flawed. Westcott and Hort are heretics.
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That's a very unfair portrayal. I treated you respectfully while holding you accountable to scripture and internal consistency, and consistency to the accusations you made against those who disagree with you.

And, you are yet to provide enough scripture in context of itself, original languages, and cultural interpretation to prove your point. You have merely twisted and misquoted enough scripture to build a house of cards that agrees with your preconceived notions.

Just like you just wrenched a scripture form its context and forced a meaning on it--claiming that God's promise to uphold His word is a promise to give us the 1611 authorized KJV Bible.

In your arrogance, you've accused us of being false prophet drunkards who are going to Hell, and who have no respect for "the perfect Word of God", just because we disagree with you on moderate drinking and the status of the KJV.

SO... Defend your claim. Answer the question. What about that verse promises us the specific KJV authorized English Bible, as opposed to preserving the lines of original language manuscripts?

Step up. Support your claims and accusations.

And if you think I'm unkind in my attitude toward you, Jesus was pretty direct toward self-righteous Pharisees as well.
 
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#455
#455
BigO95 said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 20:1 (KJV)
1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:29-35 (KJV)
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Argue all you please, the word of God will never change! And Saturday is the Sabbath day.
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are you one of the "I don't have fun because it is a sin" Baptists? I have a couple of those in my family. Revel not drink.
 
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#456
#456
LouderVol said:
are you one of the "I don't have fun because it is a sin" Baptists? I have a couple of those in my family. Revel not drink.
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I went to Bellevue Baptist Church as a child and remember Adrian Rogers coming up with some contorted, twisted logic to perpetuate the wine is grape juice b.s. His main argument boiled down to "Jesus wouldn't put rotten fruit in his body". They also bought into rock and roll backmasking hardcore. This is how you create atheists and agnostics. They frowned upon fun at Bellevue.

Why are Baptists against fornication? Because it could lead to dancing.
 
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#457
#457
midnight orange said:
I went to Bellevue Baptist Church as a child and remember Adrian Rogers coming up with some contorted, twisted logic to perpetuate the wine is grape juice b.s. His main argument boiled down to "Jesus wouldn't put rotten fruit in his body". They also bought into rock and roll backmasking hardcore. This is how you create atheists and agnostics. They frowned upon fun at Bellevue.

Why are Baptists against fornication? Because it could lead to dancing.
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1. lol at the end
2. Its a little creepy being around them, they don't say why they won't have fun, and they won't openly accuse all of us sinning, but we always feel a bit guilty about them just watching us.
3. Colossians 3:17 has always rang pretty true to me in this case.
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
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KJV for BigO.

4. complete aside to the above conversation and targeted at BigO. how do you rectify the usage of "Jesus","God" and "Father" in that KJV passage when they are clearly referencing different entities each time.
 
#458
#458
Orange_Crush said:
That's a very unfair portrayal. I treated you respectfully while holding you accountable to scripture and internal consistency, and consistency to the accusations you made against those who disagree with you.

And, you are yet to provide enough scripture in context of itself, original languages, and cultural interpretation to prove your point. You have merely twisted and misquoted enough scripture to build a house of cards that agrees with your preconceived notions.

Just like you just wrenched a scripture form its context and forced a meaning on it--claiming that God's promise to uphold His word is a promise to give us the 1611 authorized KJV Bible.

In your arrogance, you've accused us of being false prophet drunkards who are going to Hell, and who have no respect for "the perfect Word of God", just because we disagree with you on moderate drinking and the status of the KJV.

SO... Defend your claim. Answer the question. What about that verse promises us the specific KJV authorized English Bible, as opposed to preserving the lines of original language manuscripts?

Step up. Support your claims and accusations.

And if you think I'm unkind in my attitude toward you, Jesus was pretty direct toward self-righteous Pharisees as well.
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You sir are the one who accused me of being a heretic for believing drinking is a sin and believing that people that live a lifestyle of a drunkard to be lost. You try to accuse me of preaching a works salvation for believing repentance necessary for salvation. You are the one who called me a self righteous Pharisee and a heretic for believing these things. And yes I still believe that the KJV is the word of God. Guilty as charged!!! I said that if you believe that someone can live a drunkards life and still go to heaven, you are giving them a false hope and making them twofold the child of hell and I still stand by it!!!! If you don't like my theology or my post, you are welcome sir to ignore them. :hi:
 
#459
#459
LouderVol said:
are you one of the "I don't have fun because it is a sin" Baptists? I have a couple of those in my family. Revel not drink.
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I have lots of fun, I just haven't thought that sin was fun since I have been born again. :hi:
 
#460
#460
LouderVol said:
1. lol at the end
2. Its a little creepy being around them, they don't say why they won't have fun, and they won't openly accuse all of us sinning, but we always feel a bit guilty about them just watching us.
3. Colossians 3:17 has always rang pretty true to me in this case. KJV for BigO.

4. complete aside to the above conversation and targeted at BigO. how do you rectify the usage of "Jesus","God" and "Father" in that KJV passage when they are clearly referencing different entities each time.
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I'm not sure what you are asking.
 
#461
#461
BigO95 said:
You sir are the one who accused me of being a heretic for believing drinking is a sin and believing that people that live a lifestyle of a drunkard to be lost. You try to accuse me of preaching a works salvation for believing repentance necessary for salvation. You are the one who called me a self righteous Pharisee and a heretic for believing these things. And yes I still believe that the KJV is the word of God. Guilty as charged!!! I said that if you believe that someone can live a drunkards life and still go to heaven, you are giving them a false hope and making them twofold the child of hell and I still stand by it!!!! If you don't like my theology or my post, you are welcome sir to ignore them. :hi:
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Do you find it odd that you rely on the KJV to support your position that you should rely on the KJV?

Asking for a friend.

I'll hang up and listen.
 
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#462
#462
Anyone who doesn't believe in hell hasn't watched UT football over the past eight years.

Or is a Kansas football fan...
 
#463
#463
Grand Vol said:
Or is a Kansas football fan...
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Kansas football is only frustrating if you have expectations.

My earliest fandom, that of the Royals, was such that for most of my life I've not had any expectations of success. Going to a Royals game in the 1990s and 2000s was like a day at the park.

Kansas football is the same deal. If you are watching with either the expectation that KU will win or that you will see a good game, you will be disappointed. If you are attending and watching simply to enjoy a beer and the circus of it all, you'll enjoy yourself.
 
#464
#464
therealUT said:
Kansas football is only frustrating if you have expectations.

My earliest fandom, that of the Royals, was such that for most of my life I've not had any expectations of success. Going to a Royals game in the 1990s and 2000s was like a day at the park.

Kansas football is the same deal. If you are watching with either the expectation that KU will win or that you will see a good game, you will be disappointed. If you are attending and watching simply to enjoy a beer and the circus of it all, you'll enjoy yourself.
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Some of the best losers I've ever seen. Okie State is kinda in that same boat. They expect to drop a game or two every year and don't get butthurt when they lose.

Oklahoma on the other hand...eff those guys.
 
#465
#465
BigO95 said:
I have lots of fun, I just haven't thought that sin was fun since I have been born again. :hi:
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board games, card games, jokes, laughter, with family. I consider that more revelry than stumbling drunk thru Nashville with Dink.

not taking anything away from pissing on random objects all over the city.
 
#466
#466
BigO95 said:
I'm not sure what you are asking.
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Jesus, God, and the Father are all listed in the same verse as three distinct entities (how would one sit beside himself). I don't think I have seen you explain a position on the trinity (is each God, are they individuals, pieces of the same, how does that relationship work), and I would be interested to hear it, especially regarding the quote, since in most considerations God is the Father.
 
#467
#467
therealUT said:
Do you find it odd that you rely on the KJV to support your position that you should rely on the KJV?

Asking for a friend.

I'll hang up and listen.
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With the history of the bible that I have studied, I have come to the conclusion that the KJV Bible is in fact the word of God. And the bible itself proclaims that is indeed preserved. I was merely pointing that out.
 
#468
#468
LouderVol said:
board games, card games, jokes, laughter, with family. I consider that more revelry than stumbling drunk thru Nashville with Dink.

not taking anything away from pissing on random objects all over the city.
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That is a scary thought! Dink sounds like he can throw down on the partying. He and I would have gotten along great before I got saved.
 
#469
#469
LouderVol said:
Jesus, God, and the Father are all listed in the same verse as three distinct entities (how would one sit beside himself). I don't think I have seen you explain a position on the trinity (is each God, are they individuals, pieces of the same, how does that relationship work), and I would be interested to hear it, especially regarding the quote, since in most considerations God is the Father.
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I do believe in the Trinity of God. Three distinct persons and yet one. Not sure how to explain it but I simply believe it.
 
#470
#470
BigO95 said:
With the history of the bible that I have studied, I have come to the conclusion that the KJV Bible is in fact the word of God. And the bible itself proclaims that is indeed preserved. I was merely pointing that out.
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Is there a translation that doesn’t claim to be preserved and the word of god?
 
#473
#473
Vol8188 said:
Is there a translation that doesn’t claim to be preserved and the word of god?
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Yes. The 1611 authorized KJV. It literally says so in the translator's preface. The translators stated that no translation is the inerrant word of God, but sufficing enough for study so as to be termed the Word of God.

In other words, the translators of the KJV said that the KJV is not the very Word of God, but is useful to the common man, in his common tongue, as other translations would be as well.
 
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#474
#474
BigO95 said:
You sir are the one who accused me of being a heretic for believing drinking is a sin and believing that people that live a lifestyle of a drunkard to be lost. You try to accuse me of preaching a works salvation for believing repentance necessary for salvation. You are the one who called me a self righteous Pharisee and a heretic for believing these things. And yes I still believe that the KJV is the word of God. Guilty as charged!!! I said that if you believe that someone can live a drunkards life and still go to heaven, you are giving them a false hope and making them twofold the child of hell and I still stand by it!!!! If you don't like my theology or my post, you are welcome sir to ignore them. :hi:
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Once again, you are being disingenuous to the discussion.

You claim that it is a sin to drink alcohol. That is a false teaching.

The problem that your interpretation creates per a drunk going to heaven... You think that someone who believes in Jesus, yet gets drunk, won't go to heaven because they got drunk. The flip side of that logic is that you thus believe that you will go to heaven because you don't get drunk.

You just offered a Jesus-plus-me salvation. So, don't get mad at me for calling you a false teacher. Get mad at Paul, who would tell you to cut your manhood off and burn in hell.

On second thought, compared to him, I think I showed a great deal of restraint.

By the way, can you show me where the Bible says that no drunkards will go to heaven? Thanks.
 
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