PizzaGate

Censorship is not the answer. The answer is for people that are sane not to propagate nonsense like this while smirking at the fact that they are roiling their political opponents, without regard for the fact that by doing so they legitimize the wacky ideas of the extreme.

Liberal democracy's "contract" with us, if you will, was stay educated and you can have me.

We haven't done that, and I suspect thinks are only going to get worse, especially if this guy's privatization advocate for EDSEC makes good on her billionaire dreams.

I don't know how we recover an educated populace today, given how massive it is and how many hardships it must overcome in learning to appropriately negotiate information on social media.

As I said, I'm not confident. The thing about liberal democracy is that - although very messy - it works better than any other - that is, until it falls deep in a hole. At that point, the odds of recovering it and of recovering the culture and society at large through liberal democracy's own values and platforms are very slim.
 
Censorship is not the answer. The answer is for people that are sane not to propagate nonsense like this while smirking at the fact that they are roiling their political opponents, without regard for the fact that by doing so they legitimize the wacky ideas of the extreme.

Again, this has nothing to do with politics. Makes me wonder if you have something to hide.
 
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The tools of democracy have now been weaponized by those who despise it.

I'm not very confident in the future of liberal democracy.

I keep going back to a thought experiment I give people when we have this discussion. So, two things:

1. The great Tulsa race riot from the early twentieth-century. America survived that. The race riots of the 60s, we survived too. Both far worse than some police shootings today. Now, inject Twitter, Facebook, social media, and fake news into Tulsa and the 60s. What do you get?

2. The Great Depression was one of the darkest times in American history. It was very rough, but we came out even stronger (granted, WWII didn't hurt that). Now, what do you get if you throw Twitter, Facebook, 4chan and other online forums, and other social media into that event?

Liberal democracies will be under far more strain than they have been at any other point in history. I'm not confident they survive. The tools that previously allowed them to flourish are now being used against them, by foreign and domestic enemies alike. I think it's very possible we're staring at an authoritarian future.

isn't liberal democracy an oxymoron
 
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Again, this has nothing to do with politics. Makes me wonder if you have something to hide.


Uh huh.

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Do you have any substantive arguments against the evidence of this case? You haven't stated anything other than "fake". What are your explanations for why this is nonsense?

I still don't understand his assertion this has anything to do with partisan politics.
 
You have to realize that there are a lot of mentally and emotionally imbalanced people on this forum. Doesn't take much to push them over the edge, like losing to Vandy.

Sorry, carry on, please ignore the interruption of pizzagate. I couldn't resist fixing your post.
 
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They are reporting that "pizzagate" is a bogus story. (I am not at all surprised that you cannot read).

And hey, if this is not being tendered by you loon right winger nut jobs, why is this in the politics forum at all? Shouldn't it be moved to the Pub?

What investigative journalism was done to refute the circumstantial evidence of pizzagate?

I've seen zero reports that had anything other than opinion.
 
Congratulations. It was exactly this reasoning that the gunman cited as his rationale for walking in and pointing a gun at one of the employees.

So? Just because someone did something dumb doesn't discount the question. You called it bogus, and they're asking you to back up the assertion. "Someone had a gun" isn't valid logic as an answer.
 
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We appear to be going in circles. I've really got no other information for you. I don't see how I can prove the negative here, at least to your satisfaction.
 
We appear to be going in circles. I've really got no other information for you. I don't see how I can prove the negative here, at least to your satisfaction.

I'll ask you a question where you won't have to prove a negative.

Do you acknowledge that there have been child sex trafficking rings involving high ranking officials, politicians, police, and successful business men in the past?

If so, what are your reasons for quickly writing off pizzagate as "fake news" without even a cursory look at the evidence?
 
We appear to be going in circles. I've really got no other information for you. I don't see how I can prove the negative here, at least to your satisfaction.

If it really was only a matter of not being able to prove a negative, I would think your stance would be "I'm agnostic on this topic". Instead, you are asserting that it is known that this is fake, not just that it is unknowable. Your biases are so obvious.
 
I'll ask you a question where you won't have to prove a negative.

Do you acknowledge that there have been child sex trafficking rings involving high ranking officials, politicians, police, and successful business men in the past?

If so, what are your reasons for quickly writing off pizzagate as "fake news" without even a cursory look at the evidence?


Decades-long? Involving people as high as presidents or spouses of presidents, secretaries of state running for higher office? Constantly surrounded by media, with tons of people constantly trying to find something wrong with them?

No.

What Is Pizzagate? The Insane Child Sex Conspiracy Theory That Led A Man To Fire A Rifle In A Restaurant, Explained | SPIN

If you come across an article alleging that Podesta and Clinton are conducting satanic sex rituals on young boys while dining on anchovy slices in the basement of Comet Ping Pong, don’t take it seriously. But if you’d like to understand the web of innuendo and fabrication that’s entangled whomever shared that article in your news feed—and perhaps even attempt to disabuse your Facebook friend of their strange ideas—read on.
Pizzagate began gaining traction last month, around the time of the presidential election, when misguided vigilant citizens on 4chan and Reddit discovered that Alefantis appeared several times in the cache of hacked emails belonging to Podesta that were published by Wikileaks. All of the emails to Alefantis were related to a fundraising dinner for the Clinton campaign, which is not surprising. He is something of a celebrity chef in D.C., and the only actual fact on which the Pizzagaters have based their theory is his adjacency to Democratic power brokers. He is a casual acquaintance of Podesta’s brother Tony, according to the New York Times, and he was once in a romantic relationship with the prominent Clinton ally David Brock. That said, Alefantis is very far from the candidate’s inner circle, and has never even met Clinton herself, he told the Times.
Reddit has since deactivated a board devoted to Pizzagate theorizing, and the Reddit post that seems to have first popularized the Pizzagate idea, on /r/The_Donald, has been removed. (“We don’t want witchhunts on our site,” reads the message you receive when you try to access /r/Pizzagate.) Reddit’s belated clampdown was not enough to deter the peddlers of conspiracy theories and fake news that got in on the action, however, generating headlines like “Pizzagate: Podesta pedo perps and Clinton’s international child sex trafficking ring exposed” (Sott.net), and “Pizza Gate- Clintons run a child sex trafficking ring” (Steemit.com).
Low-level political boosters like Alefantis are a dime a dozen in D.C., on both sides of the party divide. How did a passing connection to the Podesta brothers turn him into a deviant mastermind, presiding over grease-stained child sex parties for the Democratic elite? The evidence, as laid out by Pizzagate believers, is startlingly thin. “There’s a good chance that you’re not familiar with this, because you’re probably not a pedophile,” the narrator of a popular YouTube Pizzagate video intones. “But ‘pizza’ is actually a term used by pedophiles, to describe pedophilia, or child porn.”


If you take this ridiculous assertion to be true, Podesta’s inbox is suddenly brimming with discussion of pedophilia: an invitation to a pizza lunch and discussion of the upcoming Supreme Court session at Georgetown University (Predators in the halls of academia!), an advertisement for “everyday low prices in the frozen pizza aisle” at the supermarket chain Safeway (I don’t know how this “frozen pizza” works, but it sounds disgusting and painful for everyone involved!). A lost handkerchief emblazoned with a pizza design mentioned in one Podesta email clearly signifies a preference for underage sex, according to the narrator of the same YouTube video.
If all of this seems like a wild leap of imagination to you, well, that’s just the territory we’re in. Anti-Clinton conspiracies have populated the fringe right-wing media since Hillary’s husband was in office. The Pizzagaters are also deeply invested in the idea that John and Tony Podesta participate in occult sex rituals—based on an email from Marina Abramovic, a world-famous performance artist who sometimes uses violent and sexual imagery in her work. Once you earnestly believe that your political enemies are capable of murdering their own staffers, as one particularly tenacious theory accuses the Clintons of doing, or that they spend their Saturdays beheading small animals and bathing in the blood, an elaborate system of culinary codewords for child rape might not feel so far off.
Alerted to the abuses that were supposedly being carried out by the Clintons and their allies at Comet Ping Pong, self-appointed investigators began scouring the social media accounts of Alefantis and his employees, generating even more “evidence” against them. A photo of what looks like Comet’s walk-in refrigerator quickly was taken to be some sort of sex dungeon. The crossed ping-pong paddles pictured on the restaurant’s menu refer not to the actual ping-pong tables inside the restaurant, the Pizzagaters claimed, but an arcane symbol supposedly used by pedophiles to safely self-identify to each other. Believers began leaving threatening comments on social media and obscenity-laced messages on Comet’s phone line. “From this insane, fabricated conspiracy theory, we’ve come under constant assault,” Alefantis told the Times last month, weeks before the shooting.
Another photo, pulled from Alefantis’s Instagram account, shows a man holding a toddler. According to the annotations supplied by a Pizzagate believer on Twitter, the yellow beads the man is wearing around his neck are not an ordinary necklace, but a “sex bracelet,” signifying his passion for analingus, presumably with the child he is holding. The photo is also branded with the word HOMOSEXUAL, in big block letters, and many other pieces of supposed evidence against Alefantis and Comet are also characterized by latent or outright homophobia. Another YouTube video notes an Instagram photo of apparently lesbian graffiti in the Comet bathroom as potential support for the idea that young girls are abused there.
Eventually, supporters began “investigating” businesses on the same block as Comet, including an NGO focused on helping Haitian orphans, Snopes points out. One of the more fanciful theories holds that there are underground tunnels connecting the buildings, forming a vast subterranean sex chamber.
All in all, Pizzagate seems like a perfect confluence of several related factors. Long-running paranoia about the Clintons, enabled by Donald Trump’s assertions during the presidential campaign that Hillary should be sent to prison, sets them up as the sorts of evildoers who might partake in pedophilia. The amateur sleuths that run rampant on Reddit and forums like it, responsible for everything from Westworld fan theories to the false accusation of an innocent man after the Boston marathon bombing, dig for clues to support the wild claims. The fake news industry, with access to an audience of millions via Facebook, give these claims the veneer of objective reporting and fact. The post-Gamergate right-wing culture warriors wage coordinated harassment campaigns against their targets, determined to enact justice themselves if the PC liberal media won’t do it. Second-amendment fanaticism suggests armed resistance as a reasonable course of action when your government acts in ways you don’t agree with.
Edgar Welch may be the first gunman to take the warnings of the right-wing conspiracy theory complex as literal calls to arms. He almost certainly will not be the last.
 
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