Parrish article on Martin's exit

#77
#77
k-town_king said:
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com Ranking - Rivals150 for the class of 2011

Everyone knew those two were going pro. Way different than losing transfers you could have kept.


Josh Richardson 17 spots from a 4 star.


Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com Ranking - Rivals150 for class of 2010


McRae 19 away from 5 star. Pretty close.

I think production shows what type of player they are. You think rankings matter more than what they actually do on the court? You think Woolridge or Tatum are better than J Rich then?

The fact is the players CDT inherited that he had a chance to keep put up better numbers.

There was a reason we were picked last or next to last in the SEC. No returning players who had done anything at all. Now we have J Rich a probable All SEC pick. Hubbs also who did way better than McRae even with a bad shoulder.
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The only reason Hubbs had "way more" production is because he played on a less talented team. And I don't know if I call averaging a "handful" of points as being way more productive. McRae should've been redshirted that year.

JRich is a nice player. Yeah, he's better than many 4*. I don't use rankings as a sole basis for my argument, but bball rankings are a pretty good indicator of talent level of a team.

So CDT inherited 1 underrated 3* and 1 5*. Zo, meanwhile inherited 6 4* players.

Martin had every opportunity to keep Scotty and Tobias. Every bit as much as DT had to keep DT and Davis anyway.

Martin's biggest flaw here was his recruiting. He was not a good recruiter and never got enough traction to gain momentum. He didn't like it here from the get go and wasn't a good fit. Fans realized this as well. Although fans here gave him more than enough chances. While attendance did slightly drop, it was still top 10 in the country. Another great example of fans giving him great support is when they put about 15k in the stands for a stinking NIT game which we LOST to an inferior instate opponent on our own court.
 
#78
#78
BigZiti09 said:
Good post.

The other thing that stuck out to me was Martin admitting that he knew 2 or 3 months into the job that it wasn't a good fit.
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As he said, Tennessee ideally needs a salesman, and that was never going to be Martin. He didn't like getting out in the community, he wasn't big on social media, and he wasn't gonna go standing on tables in the cafeteria to get students to attended games.
 
#79
#79
bigziti09 said:
trae golden 4*
jordan mcrae 4*
cam tatum 4*
jeronne maymon 4*
kenny hall 4*
swiperboy4*
skylar mcbee

vs

josh richardson 3*
armani moore 3*
derek reese 3*
robert hubbs 5*
aj davis 3*
darius thompson 3*
jordan cornish 4*
phil cofer 4*
larry austin 4*
cj turman 3*

rankings aren't everything, but i don't think that there's any question who inherited a better squad.
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fyp
 
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#80
#80
cncchris33 said:
I had a feeling you'd take that angle with Thompson and Davis. It is of no fault of Tyndall's that they chose to pursue easier roads elsewhere, so no, he didn't inherit them.

I'll agree that I would take JRich over Tatum, which is why I agreed to an extent with your claim that CDT is inheriting more. Again...barely. Hubbs is only marginally more proven than McRae was at the time, and if you forced me to choose between Tatum, McRae, Maymon, Golden, Kenny Hall, Woolridge, & McBee, or Richardson, Hubbs, Moore, & Reese, then I'm taking that first group 10 times out of 10. Sure, with the benefit of hindsight, Tatum, Hall, & Woolridge didn't exactly pan out, but no one knew that at the time. On paper, Martin had a good deal of talent, a heck of a lot more depth, and the luxury of not having to fill out more than half his roster with leftovers who may or may not ever contribute at an SEC level. Tyndall has four players returning; one all-SEC level player, a highly touted SO, and two roll players who have no defined position, and then attempted to fill out the roster with limited options in short time.
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Tyndall had an opportunity to keep Thompson and Davis, he chose not too. He also had an opportunity to keep three 4* recruits on the roster, but chose not to.
So this whole, he had to replace 9 players deal doesn't draw sympathy from me.

If he wanted to Tyndall could've been sitting with...

Reese 3*
Hubbs 5*
Moore 3*
Richardson 3*
Davis 3*
Thompson 3*
Austin 4*
Cornish 4*
Cofer 4*
Turman 3*


He wouldn't only had to fill 3 spots.
 
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#81
#81
cncchris33 said:
Excellent point. You can't count players that you had no chance of keeping. Thompson and Davis left because Zo was fired, not because Tyndall was hired. Simple as that. He had little to no chance of convincing them to change their already decided minds.
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100% false

Davis and Thompson were both at least willing to listen and run through some workouts, don't recall Scotty or Tobias doing that.
 
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#83
#83
BigZiti09 said:
The only reason Hubbs had "way more" production is because he played on a less talented team. And I don't know if I call averaging a "handful" of points as being way more productive. McRae should've been redshirted that year.

JRich is a nice player. Yeah, he's better than many 4*. I don't use rankings as a sole basis for my argument, but bball rankings are a pretty good indicator of talent level of a team.

So CDT inherited 1 underrated 3* and 1 5*. Zo, meanwhile inherited 6 4* players.

Martin had every opportunity to keep Scotty and Tobias. Every bit as much as DT had to keep DT and Davis anyway.

Martin's biggest flaw here was his recruiting. He was not a good recruiter and never got enough traction to gain momentum. He didn't like it here from the get go and wasn't a good fit. Fans realized this as well. Although fans here gave him more than enough chances. While attendance did slightly drop, it was still top 10 in the country. Another great example of fans giving him great support is when they put about 15k in the stands for a stinking NIT game which we LOST to an inferior instate opponent on our own court.
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Martin could not keep the guys going to the NBA draft. CDT could have kept the guys who transferred and some recruits. He didn't want to. He would have had just as many stars and more production. He chose to let a lot of guys go or the guys didn't like him. Still not the same.

The point still remains CDT walked into more returning production. You can compare the first years after the season.

No excuse for him to not at least do what Martin did his first year. A year that many deem bad.
 
#84
#84
Tobias Harris 5*
Scotty Hopson 5*
trae golden 4*
jordan mcrae 4*
cam tatum 4*
jeronne maymon 4*
kenny hall 4*
swiperboy4*
skylar mcbee
Kevin Ware 4*

vs

josh richardson 3*
armani moore 3*
derek reese 3*
robert hubbs 5*
aj davis 3*
darius thompson 3*
jordan cornish 4*
phil cofer 4*
larry austin 4*
cj turman 3*
Click to expand...

bleedingTNorange said:
fyp
Click to expand...

fyp
 
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#85
#85
k-town_king said:
Then why did they meet with Tyndall and talk about staying? Scotty and Harris were gone to the draft. Everyone knew it. Nowhere near the same thing.
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Davis didn't meet with CDT about potentially staying that I know of, and Thompson found a colder market for his services than he probably anticipated. Allegedly his father was not a fan of Tyndall and wasn't willing to sign off on him playing for CDT for personal reasons. Nothing CDT can do to make two kids stay whose minds were already made up to leave (one way or another). If you blame CDT for them leaving, then we won't have a productive discussion. You can't blame him for not convincing those guys to give him more of a chance any more than you can blame Zo for not convincing Scotty and Tobias to give him more of a chance.

Plain and simple, CDT inherited 4 players that he had better than a fighting chance at retaining.
 
#87
#87
k-town_king said:
Martin could not keep the guys going to the NBA draft. CDT could have kept the guys who transferred and some recruits. He didn't want to. He would have had just as many stars and more production. He chose to let a lot of guys go or the guys didn't like him. Still not the same.

The point still remains CDT walked into more returning production. You can compare the first years after the season.

No excuse for him to not at least do what Martin did his first year. A year that many deem bad.
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Where is all this production you speak of? We have 1 guy who was a significant contributor. Josh Richardson. Armani should have been but CM decided to hide him on the bench for some reason.
 
#89
#89
bleedingTNorange said:
100% false

Davis and Thompson were both at least willing to listen and run through some workouts, don't recall Scotty or Tobias doing that.
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Scotty and Tobias were running through drills as well...preparing for the NBA. The only difference was they made up their minds to leave a little sooner. The end result was the same though.
 
#90
#90
cncchris33 said:
Scotty and Tobias were running through drills as well...preparing for the NBA. The only difference was they made up their minds to leave a little sooner. The end result was the same though.
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Yes their minds were already made, no matter who the coach was really, Davis & Thompson were both partially open to staying.
 
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#91
#91
bleedingTNorange said:
Yes their minds were already made, no matter who the coach was really, Davis & Thompson were both partially open to staying.
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If you say so. Davis decided pretty quickly that he wanted no part. Thompson, IMO, made the same decision, but found his suitors to be fewer and farther between than he anticipated after he officially opted out, and suddenly returning became a little more appealing.
 
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#92
#92
cncchris33 said:
If you say so. Davis decided pretty quickly that he wanted no part. Thompson, IMO, made the same decision, but found his suitors to be fewer and farther between than he anticipated after he officially opted out, and suddenly returning became a little more appealing.
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Yea Davis made his decision pretty quickly after the first meeting with Tyndall, no coincidence.

I don't have a huge issue with Tyndall wanting his guys, I get that guys wanna win or lose with their guys. My point simply was, I'm not near as sympathetic as most are about him "having to replace 9 guys" because it's in large part his fault.
 
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#94
#94
bleedingTNorange said:
Kevin Ware wouldn't have gotten in, and Tobias nor Scotty would even meet with Martin:thumbsup:
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Kevin Ware wouldn't have gotten in? News to me.

I seriously doubt that Tobias and Scotty both refused to meet with Martin.

I remember seeing video of Martin and Tobias playing softball on campus together. Hanging out acting chummy.

:thumbsup:
 
#95
#95
bleedingTNorange said:
Yea Davis made his decision pretty quickly after the first meeting with Tyndall, no coincidence.

I don't have a huge issue with Tyndall wanting his guys, I get that guys wanna win or lose with their guys. My point simply was, I'm not near as sympathetic as most are about him "having to replace 9 guys" because it's in large part his fault.
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He didn't make an effort to keep some guys, so I would agree with that to an extent, but even if you add in all the players he cut loose/made little to no effort to keep, you still have a less intimidating roster than what Martin was left with on paper IMO.

You know me and my belief on the rankings, but both coaches were left with very little experience to draw off of their respective rosters. So, based purely on paper, which roster are you taking? The one chock full of 4* talent, or the one with mostly 3* talent. Without the benefit of hindsight to the beginning of Zo's tenure, I think you play the odds on that.
 
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#96
#96
BigZiti09 said:
Kevin Ware wouldn't have gotten in? News to me.

I seriously doubt that Tobias and Scotty both refused to meet with Martin.

I remember seeing video of Martin and Tobias playing softball on campus together. Hanging out acting chummy.

:thumbsup:
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They were both already attending NBA workouts, I don't recall Scotty ever meeting with Martin prior to announcing his decision. Would be more than happy to see a link that say otherwise :hi:
 
#97
#97
BigZiti09 said:
Where is all this production you speak of? We have 1 guy who was a significant contributor. Josh Richardson. Armani should have been but CM decided to hide him on the bench for some reason.
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You still can't count Harris and Hopson. That is like saying Stokes should count. He was gone justlike those two.


Martin inherited one player (Tatum) who averaged more than 3 points.

Tyndall 3 really but I will say two since Moore is barely over.

Best player coming back. Martin had Tatum. Tyndall J Rich who averaged almost 20 in the NCAA.

PG Golden 3 ppg, 2.2 ast 1rb 23 steals. Thompson 2.5 ppg, 2.5 ast , 2 rbs 36 steals

SG McRae 1.8 ppg, 0 ast , .8rb, 1/11 3pt Hubbs 5.1 ppg, 1.7rb, .7 ast 9/32 3pts

SF Tatum 8.8 ppg, 3.1rb, 2.1 ast 34/125 30stls 12 blks 3pt Richardson 10.3 ppg, 3 rb, 1.5 ast 34/100 3pt 27 stls 30 blks

PF Maymon, 2.6 ppg, 2.8 rb 0blks ,Moore 3.1ppg, 2.2rbs, 20blks

C Hall(dismissed) 2.0ppg , 1.8 rbs, 4blks Reese 2.4ppg 3rbs, 11blks

Top two off bench
Woolridge 1.6, 1.4 rbs, Mcbee 3ppg, 1rb

Davis 1.3ppg, 1.6rbs, Pops 1.0ppg, 1.0rb

So what Tyndall got is just as good or better production wise.
 
#98
#98
dhb92 said:
I guarantee that if Tyndall goes to the NIT 2 years in a row he will be in the same hot seat as Martin. And what people seem to forget is that at the time of the petition we were looking like it'd be year 3 in the NIT, it wasn't until the very tail end of the season that thy seemed to have it together. I think that Cuonzo's personality also didn't buy himself any time.
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Racist if so.
 
#99
#99
cncchris33 said:
He didn't make an effort to keep some guys, so I would agree with that to an extent, but even if you add in all the players he cut loose/made little to no effort to keep, you still have a less intimidating roster than what Martin was left with on paper IMO.

You know me and my belief on the rankings, but both coaches were left with very little experience to draw off of their respective rosters. So, based purely on paper, which roster are you taking? The one chock full of 4* talent, or the one with mostly 3* talent. Without the benefit of hindsight to the beginning of Zo's tenure, I think you play the odds on that.
Click to expand...

I agree that Zo's roster looked a bit better, but as you've said we also didn't know McRae, Golden and Maymon were gonna turn in to what they did. In fact up to that point their paths looked to be headed along the same lines of Hall and Swiperboy's.

Both rosters were unproven, inexperienced, and had some guys with potential. Martin managed to take what he had, add a few pieces, and then go on to win 19 games and finish 2nd in the SEC.

Yet most seem to be saying 15 wins and CBI would be pretty acceptable this year given the hand that was dealt, no?
 
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