#OregonUnderAttack

#351
#351
Grand Vol said:
It's hard to tell from the video exactly what happened. He does appear to reach for his waistband a couple of times, but it's also hard to see exactly when the first shot was fired.

The cops certainly did look to be spoiling for a fight though.
Click to expand...

He definitely appeared to reach for his waistband. I have a problem with the narrative that is being put out right now that it was "common knowledge" that he kept a handgun in his waistband. However, he should have stayed in the damn truck when he got stuck and waited for instructions. Or maybe not tried to elude the cops at all.

I'm not sure the cops were spoiling for a fight so much as just looking to take down a couple of the leaders and perhaps end the silliness up there.
 
#352
#352
jvol1 said:
My take is that these guys were in trouble when they ran after being pulled over and attempted to run the road block. It's clearly in defiance of the police and possibly endangering them a bit. When the person who exits the vehicle doesn't immediately submit, he's probably subject to being shot because the LEs have no way of knowing how much danger they're in from the other people in the car or whether a fire fight is about to break out. That's just the legal side of it.

On the other hand, I think this sort of policing may be more aggressive than necessary and the tactics police use in these situations need to be revisited to prevent unnecessary loss of life. I definitely think that greater restraint could've been used by the officers and that these "resistors" are more or less harmless.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that greater restraint could have been used, but the rhetoric from the resistors and the fact that they were armed made this a volatile situation. When there is a legitimate threat to the safety of the officers I don't have a problem with deadly force.

As a practical matter, there is a different tact that must be taken by someone who is armed when they are pulled over. I have encountered the situation a few times. I stay in the car. I let the officer know that I have a carry permit and that I am armed. I then let him decide how they want proceed safely. Hopping out of car and running around is not how to handle that situation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#353
#353
ClearwaterVol said:
He definitely appeared to reach for his waistband. I have a problem with the narrative that is being put out right now that it was "common knowledge" that he kept a handgun in his waistband. However, he should have stayed in the damn truck when he got stuck and waited for instructions. Or maybe not tried to elude the cops at all.

I'm not sure the cops were spoiling for a fight so much as just looking to take down a couple of the leaders and perhaps end the silliness up there.
Click to expand...

He got out of the truck so the other people inside wouldn't be shot and killed by mistake/on purpose. Anyone that's read about Waco or Ruby Ridge knows what can/will happen to innocent civilians.
 
#354
#354
davethevol said:
He got out of the truck so the other people inside wouldn't be shot and killed by mistake/on purpose. Anyone that's read about Waco or Ruby Ridge knows what can/will happen to innocent civilians.
Click to expand...

Why didn't drop to his knees and put his hands on his head? And, I maintain, it is still safer for all involved to remain in the vehicle. Safer yet not to flee from the police.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#355
#355
ClearwaterVol said:
I'm not arguing that greater restraint could have been used, but the rhetoric from the resistors and the fact that they were armed made this a volatile situation. When there is a legitimate threat to the safety of the officers I don't have a problem with deadly force.

As a practical matter, there is a different tact that must be taken by someone who is armed when they are pulled over. I have encountered the situation a few times. I stay in the car. I let the officer know that I have a carry permit and that I am armed. I then let him decide how they want proceed safely. Hopping out of car and running around is not how to handle that situation.
Click to expand...

That's kind of what I said in the first paragraph.
 
#356
#356
ClearwaterVol said:
Why didn't drop to his knees and put his hands on his head? And, I maintain, it is still safer for all involved to remain in the vehicle. Safer yet not to flee from the police.
Click to expand...

I don't know why he didn't drop to his knees. Maybe he was surprised by what was happening and not thinking clearly, maybe they were giving conflicting commands (that happens pretty often). But regardless, he's dead and the reason as to why isn't clear cut yet. It is still possible that was a justified shooting, especially if he was reaching for his waistband and hadn't been shot at that point.
 
#357
#357
davethevol said:
I don't know why he didn't drop to his knees. Maybe he was surprised by what was happening and not thinking clearly, maybe they were giving conflicting commands (that happens pretty often). But regardless, he's dead and the reason as to why isn't clear cut yet. It is still possible that was a justified shooting, especially if he was reaching for his waistband and hadn't been shot at that point.
Click to expand...

That can get your ass killed and make the killing justified.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#358
#358
Bad choice by Finicum to not do exactly what the cops told him to do. Some seem to forget that whether you like it or not LE officers have legal authority over you. Especially when you have broken laws. Ignore them at your own peril.

Even after seeing the video I don't know the full story but I expect the cops will be exonerated.




.
 
#359
#359
ClearwaterVol said:
That can get your ass killed and make the killing justified.
Click to expand...

Not following orders is not justification for shooting unless they can show they felt their lives were in danger. If the audio has them shooting first causing him to reach for the wound, then there will be hell to pay.
 
#360
#360
MT LeConte said:
Bad choice by Finicum to not do exactly what the cops told him to do. Some seem to forget that whether you like it or not LE officers have legal authority over you. Especially when you have broken laws. Ignore them at your own peril.

Even after seeing the video I don't know the full story but I expect the cops will be exonerated.




.
Click to expand...

They will regardless of what happened.
 
#361
#361
davethevol said:
Not following orders is not justification for shooting unless they can show they felt their lives were in danger. If the audio has them shooting first causing him to reach for the wound, then there will be hell to pay.
Click to expand...

My comment was directed to the part of your post that I bolded.
 
#362
#362
ClearwaterVol said:
My comment was directed to the part of your post that I bolded.
Click to expand...

Yes, and my post was in response to yours stating they still have to have justification other than "he didn't follow orders."

Also, I'm actually wondering why there wasn't audio released with that video. The ones used by law enforcement also have powerful directional mics that can pick up all kinds of audio.
 
#365
#365
At the 7 second mark in the video you can see an agent get right in the path of the vehicle as the old man swerved into the snowbank. It looks like if he didn't get hit that it was a miracle.
 
#367
#367
ClearwaterVol said:
Why didn't drop to his knees and put his hands on his head? And, I maintain, it is still safer for all involved to remain in the vehicle. Safer yet not to flee from the police.
Click to expand...

I now see why he got out. They had already shot the vehicle while he was driving. Towards the end of the video you can see the windshield and the huge circle in the glass from it being shot.
 
#368
#368
davethevol said:
I now see why he got out. They had already shot the vehicle while he was driving. Towards the end of the video you can see the windshield and the huge circle in the glass from it being shot.
Click to expand...

Not easy to tell really. It looks like it could be a shot or could be something on the dashboard. Plus they were flashbanging the vehicle so it could have been snow tossed up.

Just adding additional possibilities here.
 
#369
#369
davethevol said:
Not following orders is not justification for shooting unless they can show they felt their lives were in danger. If the audio has them shooting first causing him to reach for the wound, then there will be hell to pay.
Click to expand...

You think the FBI will release audio? They only released the video because it's ambiguous as to what happened.
 
#370
#370
Like I said, it all comes down to when he was first shot. If they didn't fire until he started reaching down, so be it. If they shot him before that, then it was not a justified killing.
 
#371
#371
Grand Vol said:
Not easy to tell really. It looks like it could be a shot or could be something on the dashboard. Plus they were flashbanging the vehicle so it could have been snow tossed up.

Just adding additional possibilities here.
Click to expand...

The police admitting to shooting at the vehicle.

Mr. Bretzing stressed the investigation of the shooting was continuing. But he said the officers fired on Mr. Finicum’s truck as it sped toward a roadblock and went off the road into a snowbank, and then again after he left the vehicle. He said the total number of shots fired was “in the single digits.”
Click to expand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/us/oregon-standoff.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
 
#373
#373
Grand Vol said:
Not easy to tell really. It looks like it could be a shot or could be something on the dashboard. Plus they were flashbanging the vehicle so it could have been snow tossed up.

Just adding additional possibilities here.
Click to expand...

I thought about the dashboard before I posted, but I just don't see something being on it after plowing into the snow. The snow probably would have melted somewhat had it splashed onto the windshield and not stayed in a circular pattern. It would also coincide with the report that the woman gave yesterday about them shooting at the vehicle and then he got out.

And I could be way off, but the more I watch it the more I'm convinced that was damage from a bullet.
 
#374
#374
davethevol said:
I thought about the dashboard before I posted, but I just don't see something being on it after plowing into the snow. The snow probably would have melted somewhat had it splashed onto the windshield and not stayed in a circular pattern. It would also coincide with the report that the woman gave yesterday about them shooting at the vehicle and then he got out.

And I could be way off, but the more I watch it the more I'm convinced that was damage from a bullet.
Click to expand...

CWV cleared it up. Apparently they did take shots at the vehicle so it very well is (or highly likely) to be a bullet hole.
 
#375
#375
CNCVol88 said:
You think the FBI will release audio? They only released the video because it's ambiguous as to what happened.
Click to expand...

I doubt it, at least not for a while if it happened the way the militias are claiming. If they shot him first and caused him to reach for the wound, then killed him, the audio will prove that. The only way it gets released is if it exonerates them, and the fact that audio wasn't released with the video even if it came from a different source is very suspicious.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement

Back
Top