Orangeslice13, a blessing to those around him…..Again

[Orangeslice13]

Read it carefully, I believe it is.

You’re welcome to believe what you want but in the original language the author clearly states that he learned from others who heard it from the Lord.

I’m not interested in twisting scripture to fit what I want to see.
The truth is all that matters. And the truth is that Paul boldly states often that learned from direct revelation. Here the language usage doesn’t match anything Paul ever wrote. He didn’t sign it and this statement is at odds with all his other declarations.

 

[Behr]

It’s my opinion that Appolos wrote Hebrews. It would explain why the author makes so many small errors that a Pharisee (Paul) would not make.

Obviously you have your mind made and that's cool, I'm not trying to change it. Im still up for discussing 6:4....but I'm curious what other mistakes your talking about. Looking at them will be a good exercise for me. This one already has been educational for me.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Yea, my home library makes me look smart...

Awesome library

 

[Orangeslice13]

Obviously you have your mind made and that's cool, I'm not trying to change it. Im still up for discussing 6:4....but I'm curious what other mistakes your talking about. Looking at them will be a good exercise for me. This one already has been educational for me.

My mind is far from made up on anything. I’m willing to be convinced of any truth. I’ve spent a huge amount of time on this particular topic and discussed it with PHDs in ancient Greek. It’s pretty clear what the truth is. Who knows someone may come up with new evidence though.
Did I mention there’s a copy of Hebrew signs on the outside by Appolos? It’s disputed but if it’s fake it’s a very old fake

 

[Orangeslice13]

@Behr
I’ve got to step out for a while. when I get back let’s 86 this distraction that’s really not relevant and go over your other posts.

 

[Behr]

You’re welcome to believe what you want but in the original language the author clearly states that he learned from others who heard it from the Lord.

I’m not interested in twisting scripture to fit what I want to see.
The truth is all that matters. And the truth is that Paul boldly states often that learned from direct revelation. Here the language usage doesn’t match anything Paul ever wrote. He didn’t sign it and this statement is at odds with all his other declarations.

Learned what from others?

 

[BigO95]

Learned what from others?

Slice and I started a conversation down this road before and never finished it. I will try to keep my big mouth out of it but I am very interested in what he has to say.
Slice and Behr, if I may, I sure would like to listen in and I promise not to but in too much...

 

[Behr]

Slice and I started a conversation down this road before and never finished it. I will try to keep my big mouth out of it but I am very interested in what he has to say.
Slice and Behr, if I may, I sure would like to listen in and I promise not to but in too much...

Only reason I didn't bring this up in the Bible thread is I just don't have the patience for Rex or PT.

I feel I had a spiritual awakening Thursday while getting into this. I have a whole new opinion of Hebrews and I knew with Slice's opinion of it, it would be a challenge for me and push me to learn as much as possible.

 

[vol445]

Only reason I didn't bring this up in the Bible thread is I just don't have the patience for Rex or PT.

I feel I had a spiritual awakening Thursday while getting into this. I have a whole new opinion of Hebrews and I knew with Slice's opinion of it, it would be a challenge for me and push me to learn as much as possible.

That’s awesome!!!!!

 

[Orangeslice13]

From the NASB..Hebrews 6:1-3 and 4-6

1.Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the [b]Christ, let us press on to [c]maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 ofinstruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.

Hebrews 6:1-3 is pretty clear, You have laid the foundation, you know your ABC's now move forward and let God carry you along to maturity.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,6 and then have fallen away, it isimpossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

"For In the case of those" seems like the writer is describing a hypothetical case to prove his point that a true believer cannot lose his salvation. 6:9 seems to support that. ...."9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that[h]accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

Look at 4 compared to 1-3, the writer changed the pronouns from "we" and "us" to "those".

It doesn’t read hypothetical at all to me. In the original it’s even more declarative. The changing of the pronouns is at the discretion of the translator. Furthermore there’s no need to bring up a hypothetical if/then situation here. It doesn’t say “if it were possible......” it says “ for in the case of those who have......”

Now I agree that the rest of scripture teaches that salvation can’t be lost. I can sight several examples from what’s called the old and New Testaments in support of that. And Messiah says clearly that he will not lose a single “sheep” given to him by the father so scripture sides with you. It’s just not what’s said here

 

[BigO95]

Only reason I didn't bring this up in the Bible thread is I just don't have the patience for Rex or PT.

I feel I had a spiritual awakening Thursday while getting into this. I have a whole new opinion of Hebrews and I knew with Slice's opinion of it, it would be a challenge for me and push me to learn as much as possible.

Stay with it friend! That Bible is simply magnificent!!! Life changing which I'm sure you already know that.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Please remember, I don't think I'm "teaching" anyone anything, except for what I've learned.

Interestingly, when I started this I used my KJV Bible. I was so excited about what I'd learned that I wanted to discuss it with you, but thought I'd better look at the NASB first.

I can only say for certain this is true about Hebrews 6:1-9. It is written different enough between the two that it seems to have different meanings. But although they take a different path, they ended up at the same place. It was awesome.

And obviously this is completely my opinion and my personal experience.

It’s with a huge amount of respect that I say you’re on the absolute right path. We won’t agree on everything and maybe not anything but you don’t answer to me. You only answer to G-d. I am also not teaching anyone. I am in these conversations to seek truth and a greater understanding of G-d and the Messiah whom He sent.
With your and my attitude the only thing that can come from this conversation is blessings


Your turn

 

[Behr]

I mentioned several times not long ago that I've been on a spiritual journey for a couple of years. Its actually been about 3. About 6 months ago some things happened that changed the coarse of my life, again and I've been searching for something really hard lately and God has been noticeably working on me the past 2 weeks and has given me some answers.

Anyway, blah blah blah. I'm kinda in a Zone right now.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I mentioned several times not long ago that I've been on a spiritual journey for a couple of years. Its actually been about 3. About 6 months ago some things happened that changed the coarse of my life, again and I've been searching for something really hard lately and God has been noticeably working on me the past 2 weeks and has given me some answers.

Anyway, blah blah blah. I'm kinda in a Zone right now.

That’s outstanding.
We are too refine ourselves like silver in the fire.
I like to take my faith, set it on fire and beat it with a hammer. What results is the flame hardened full armor of G-d.

^^^^^whole lotta Torah right there.

 

[Behr]

It’s with a huge amount of respect that I say you’re on the absolute right path. We won’t agree on everything and maybe not anything but you don’t answer to me. You only answer to G-d. I am also not teaching anyone. I am in these conversations to seek truth and a greater understanding of G-d and the Messiah whom He sent.
With your and my attitude the only thing that can come from this conversation is blessings


Your turn

I'm not in front of my "stuff" now. I was into what we were talking about and a Sunday School lesson for in the morning for about 12 hours. I'm done. Im skimming through some Auguste Escoffier now just to relax some before bed.

I hope to get better at saying what I'm trying to say in as few words as possible. Lol, I've been trying to type thus comment for 20 minutes and I keep deleting and starting over.

Smh.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I'm not in front of my "stuff" now. I was into what we were talking about and a Sunday School lesson for in the morning for about 12 hours. I'm done. Im skimming through some Auguste Escoffier now just to relax some before bed.

I hope to get better at saying what I'm trying to say in as few words as possible. Lol, I've been trying to type thus comment for 20 minutes and I keep deleting and starting over.

Smh.

Take your time. If you want to discuss this point more we will. If you want to move on that’s cool too.
I have some thoughts I think you may like but we can get into that later.

 

[Behr]

Take your time. If you want to discuss this point more we will. If you want to move on that’s cool too.
I have some thoughts I think you may like but we can get into that later.

Yea, we can look at a couple of more points on a few more verses to finish out that passage, then whatever is fine with me.

 

[Behr]

I looked back over what has been discussed so far with fresh eyes and mind, and Im not challenging this, I just need to understand what it means. You said it twice, one to me and once to BigO. My question is.. what did he learn and what is "it"?

but in the original language the author clearly states that he learned from others who heard it from the Lord.

You’re welcome to believe what you want but in the original language the author clearly states that he learned from others who heard it from the Lord

And I'm not being a smart Alec Lol, seriously, but I'm genuinely curious.....if the Baptist friend and the PHD's you mentioned that agrees with you, all believe the same as you about Hebrews being crap, not inspired and shouldn't be included in the Bible?

 

[vol445]

Been a while since I been in Bible thread. Is rex arguing against himself now?

 

[Orangeslice13]

I looked back over what has been discussed so far with fresh eyes and mind, and Im not challenging this, I just need to understand what it means. You said it twice, one to me and once to BigO. My question is.. what did he learn and what is "it"?





And I'm not being a smart Alec Lol, seriously, but I'm genuinely curious.....if the Baptist friend and the PHD's you mentioned that agrees with you, all believe the same as you about Hebrews being crap, not inspired and shouldn't be included in the Bible?

the scripture is plainly written.
The preacher I mentioned agrees that Paul could not have written it based on that verse. I assume he believes it inspired but we’ve never discussed it’s inspiration.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Salvation first spoken through the Lord then confirmed to the writer and readers of the letter to the Hebrews by those who heard it from the Lord.

Hebrews 2:3
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

The writer of Hebrews has no direct contact with Messiah.

There’s nothing else to say about this verse that hasn’t already been said too many times. To me it excludes Paul as the author. If you disagree then that’s cool too. It’s clearly not a salvation issue.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Quick question
How did Paul learn of salvation through messiah?

Hint: it was on a road trip.

 

[vol445]

Salvation first spoken through the Lord then confirmed to the writer and readers of the letter to the Hebrews by those who heard it from the Lord.

Hebrews 2:3
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

The writer of Hebrews has no direct contact with Messiah.

There’s nothing else to say about this verse that hasn’t already been said too many times. To me it excludes Paul as the author. If you disagree then that’s cool too. It’s clearly not a salvation issue.

Had this conversation with someone today. He was shocked when I showed him the verse I didn’t lead him at all. Just pointed to it and said what does this say to you. He nailed it

 

[Behr]

Salvation first spoken through the Lord then confirmed to the writer and readers of the letter to the Hebrews by those who heard it from the Lord.

Hebrews 2:3
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

The writer of Hebrews has no direct contact with Messiah.

There’s nothing else to say about this verse that hasn’t already been said too many times. To me it excludes Paul as the author. If you disagree then that’s cool too. It’s clearly not a salvation issue.

Had nothing to do with Paul being the author I was just trying to make sure we were on the same page. I thought the comment on chapter 6 was an interesting thought that opened up a few other opportunities for discussion, but I still leaned heavily on my first thoughts.

Obviously you've had this discussion more than once and already several times youve told me I was wrong or thats not what it says and I've got nothing new to add so I'll politely bow out.

Its cool, Im just not gonna debate or argue things I'm not clear on what you're saying and not clear in what I'm trying to say.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Had nothing to do with Paul being the author I was just trying to make sure we were on the same page. I thought the comment on chapter 6 was an interesting thought that opened up a few other opportunities for discussion, but I still leaned heavily on my first thoughts.

Obviously you've had this discussion more than once and already several times youve told me I was wrong or thats not what it says and I've got nothing new to add so I'll politely bow out.

Its cool, Im just not gonna debate or argue things I'm not clear on what you're saying and not clear in what I'm trying to say.

If you think that’s an argument then I apologize.
You’ve asked a question and I answered it. I thought I was clear that if you disagree then it’s cool.
I’m not sure why we were doubling back to Paul and his authorship but I took one more shot at answering without any malice.
It’s possible that you have a new thought I’d never heard. And if so I’d love to hear it. Even if you don’t have anything new I’d still want to hear your thoughts just in case. As you said I’ve done this for a long time and my answers can appear dismissive and harsh even though that couldn’t be further from my intention.
If you have any other thoughts on ch6 I’d like to hear it.
If you want to explore some of my objections to the book we can do that too. If you’d rather not then that’s also ok because, as I will always believe, you’re my boi, Blue.