Orangeslice13, a blessing to those around him…..Again

#7,551
#7,551
Behr said:
Youve mentioned that several times. You mentioned before that 30% of the guys that chose what books are in the Bible agree with you. That means 70% don't and felt Hebrews should be included.

Why do you think it made it in? I've got commentary by 7 different really intelligent guys that date back to the 1600's. They all have some different ideas on Hebrews, but they all agree on how important it is.

It's weird how they all go into sometimes overwhelming detail on seemingly everything, except on (the word spoken through Angels - NASB) .....(the word spoken by Angels - KJV) ....(the message declared by Angels - ESV). My point is I understand your "argument" that its not documented anywhere other than here. But since I believe the way I do I have to believe its because its not important.That it's just saying the Angels have talked about it or told others about it etc. and its the most important thing in life to all if us.

Obviously I'm not expecting to agree, but do you understand what I'm saying?
Click to expand...

edit: I do understand what you’re saying. And I think reading those opinions has value in forming your own thoughts.
But considering my beliefs are at odds with most every other religion I’ve never been scared to go it alone. Lol I don’t know or care if you agree with me but I absolutely believe you’re doing well by trying to honesty determine what you believe is truth.

Edit2: I think it made it in on popular vote. Lol
I’ve called Hebrews crap before. Mostly for effect. It’s should be pretty obvious that I’ve studied it at length. I’ve also studied the Talmud at length. Some of it , like Hebrews has value. some of it like, like Hebrews is just wrong. I consider both valuable but neither inspired.


it might not be covered by those guys as it’s a small error.
But it’s an error. And if we’re talking inspiration there shouldn’t be these errors. There are numerous errors we will still cover. Some small and some larger. The fact that they exist causes me to doubt Hebrews inspiration. For example I cannot pick apart the other letters like this so I believe them to be inspired.
 
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#7,552
#7,552
Orangeslice13 said:
edit: I do understand what you’re saying. And I think reading those opinions has value in forming your own thoughts.
But considering my beliefs are at odds with most every other religion I’ve never been scared to go it alone. Lol I don’t know or care if you agree with me but I absolutely believe you’re doing well by trying to honesty determine what you believe is truth.


it might not be covered by those guys as it’s a small error.
But it’s an error. And if we’re talking inspiration there shouldn’t be these errors. There are numerous errors we will still cover. Some small and some larger. The fact that they exist causes me to doubt Hebrews inspiration. For example I cannot pick apart the other letters like this so I believe them to be inspired.
Click to expand...

Okay, well we disagree this is an error. The "through" "by" and "declared by" all clearly tell me they were mediators.

We're 0 fer 2. Haha.


I know you knew 3. I'm shocked and don't even know what to say. I never met him but we connected a little back in the day because of him spending so much time just 30 minutes from me. Shame we never hooked up. We tried one year but I was in the middle of season and couldn't get down there.

Anyway. So sad.
 
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#7,555
#7,555
Im actually just leaving the Christian bookstore as I speak. Bought a new NASB and ESV, both with large print. They were having a sale. 20% off the NASB and 50% off the ESV. My head was hurting from the small print.
 
#7,556
#7,556
Behr said:
Im actually just leaving the Christian bookstore as I speak. Bought a new NASB and ESV, both with large print. They were having a sale. 20% off the NASB and 50% off the ESV. My head was hurting from the small print.
Click to expand...

BetterDangerousBluegill-size_restricted.gif
 
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#7,560
#7,560
I’m posting this again so it doesn’t get skipped.
This one is a big deal.

Hebrews 7:18 contradicts Both Messiah and Paul.

Hebrews 7:18
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

There is a setting aside of “a command” that is immediately defined as the law.

But Messiah says.
Mathew 5

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [i]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus says nothing has passed from the law until heaven and earth pass away. The sacrifices are different because of Messiah who martyred himself for his people but that is within the law and by the law. nothing has passed from the law.

And Paul agrees with Messiah.

Paul spends the entire Ch 7 of Romans talking to those who know the law. He explained in detail the difference in function of the law. And conclusion rightly in Ch 8 that there’s no condemnation for believers but never says the law/rules have changed or been set aside.

8:1
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

So Paul says it’s your guilt that’s removed not the definition of sin.
In fact Paul goes on to say that G-ds people still submit themselves to the law of G-d.

Romans 8:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul clearly says that those who love G-d subject or submitt themselves to the law of G-d (Torah) those who love the world (flesh) do not and can not.
 
#7,564
#7,564
Orangeslice13 said:
I’m posting this again so it doesn’t get skipped.
This one is a big deal.

Hebrews 7:18 contradicts Both Messiah and Paul.

Hebrews 7:18
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

There is a setting aside of “a command” that is immediately defined as the law.

But Messiah says.
Mathew 5

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [i]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus says nothing has passed from the law until heaven and earth pass away. The sacrifices are different because of Messiah who martyred himself for his people but that is within the law and by the law. nothing has passed from the law.

And Paul agrees with Messiah.

Paul spends the entire Ch 7 of Romans talking to those who know the law. He explained in detail the difference in function of the law. And conclusion rightly in Ch 8 that there’s no condemnation for believers but never says the law/rules have changed or been set aside.

8:1
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

So Paul says it’s your guilt that’s removed not the definition of sin.
In fact Paul goes on to say that G-ds people still submit themselves to the law of G-d.

Romans 8:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul clearly says that those who love G-d subject or submitt themselves to the law of G-d (Torah) those who love the world (flesh) do not and can not.
Click to expand...
It wasn't gonna get skipped, I already knew it was coming before you posted it earlier. Haha.
 
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#7,570
#7,570
Orangeslice13 said:
I’m posting this again so it doesn’t get skipped.
This one is a big deal.

Hebrews 7:18 contradicts Both Messiah and Paul.

Hebrews 7:18
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

There is a setting aside of “a command” that is immediately defined as the law.

.
Click to expand...

Im gonna start on the Hebrews part just to see how much of it we agree or disagree on.

I think we (I) have to remember that everything was a plan by God and he's pretty intelligent.

He gave us the law and it was strict and required perfect obedience and didn't furnish any assistance and it was "weak and unprofitable to man". It didn't pardon sin or purify the heart. It was put in place to show us the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the strict justice of God.

It was to prepare the way of The Lord. To bring in the better hope which refers to spiritual good and not earthly good, founded on the Priesthood and atonement of Christ for the purpose of doing what the old law couldn't, which is to " draw nigh to God".

An illustration is you could destory an acorn one of two ways, put it on a rock and smash it with a hammer, or plant it in the ground and let it fulfill itself into becoming a mighty oak tree.

I know this may be pretty elementary stuff for you, but understand my position of not knowing what you believe/understand/know. You at least know I believe every word of it, but there is just some things I don't fully understand.

I'll stop here for now.
 
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#7,571
#7,571
Hebrews calls it.....

“on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.”

I’d have trouble calling the word of G-d “useless”
Especially as Messiah said that “till Heaven and earth pass away, nothing passes from the law”

I agree we should get to some common understanding so let me ask you this....

Why did the believers keep the law before Messiah came?
The had sacrifices to cover their sins so why worry about keeping the law?
If Messiah is the fulfillment of Sacrifices (replaces the sacrifices as atonement) then why would our expected behavior now be different?
And again how can this all be “lawful”? Because if the self sacrifice of Messiah isn’t within the law than it’s vanity.
And finally, can anyone show me within the law a provision for discontinuing parts of the covenant or the replacement of one covenant with another and what’s required for that to happen in the eyes of G-d?
Because if it’s not by the law then nothing is complete in the eyes of G-d and it’s all vanity.


Again I realize that’s a lot to unpack but it’s very,very important.
You (generic since for anyone reading) don’t want to be in that group that thinks they’re right with G-d and hears the words

Mathew 7
Many will say to Me on (T)that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; (U)depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

note: Messiah doesn’t know those who “practice lawlessness” even though they think they are serving him.


Sorry for that.....back to Hebrews.
 
#7,572
#7,572
Orangeslice13 said:
Hebrews calls it.....

“on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.”

I’d have trouble calling the word of G-d “useless”
Especially as Messiah said that “till Heaven and earth pass away, nothing passes from the law”

I agree we should get to some common understanding so let me ask you this....

Why did the believers keep the law before Messiah came?
The had sacrifices to cover their sins so why worry about keeping the law?
If Messiah is the fulfillment of Sacrifices (replaces the sacrifices as atonement) then why would our expected behavior now be different?
And again how can this all be “lawful”? Because if the self sacrifice of Messiah isn’t within the law than it’s vanity.
And finally, can anyone show me within the law a provision for discontinuing parts of the covenant or the replacement of one covenant with another and what’s required for that to happen in the eyes of G-d?
Because if it’s not by the law then nothing is complete in the eyes of G-d and it’s all vanity.


Again I realize that’s a lot to unpack but it’s very,very important.
You (generic since for anyone reading) don’t want to be in that group that thinks they’re right with G-d and hears the words

Mathew 7
Many will say to Me on (T)that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; (U)depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

note: Messiah doesn’t know those who “practice lawlessness” even though they think they are serving him.


Sorry for that.....back to Hebrews.
Click to expand...

Regarding "weak and uselessness", Romans 8:3 says it was weakened by us.

3 For what the Law could not do, [a]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of[b]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.

Jesus took 6 important Old testament laws and interpreted them and made fundamental changes without altering God's standards. He dealt with the attitudes and intents of the heart and not simply with the external actions. The Pharisees said that righteousness consisted of performing certain actions, but Jesus said it centered in the attitudes of the heart.

Likewise with sin, Jesus said that sins came from the attitudes of the heart. Anger is murder in the heart. Lust is adultery in the heart.

Some of us don't realize that living by the Sermon on the Mount is more difficult to keep than the original Ten Commandments.

It's also the same with the sacrifices with the animals. The ritual doesn't change your heart.

Yea, you give me a lot to comment on at once, lol. I'm getting to 18.
 
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#7,573
#7,573
Behr said:
Regarding "weak and uselessness", Romans 8:3 says it was weakened by us.

3 For what the Law could not do, [a]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of[b]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.

Jesus took 6 important Old testament laws and interpreted them and made fundamental changes without altering God's standards. He dealt with the attitudes and intents of the heart and not simply with the external actions. The Pharisees said that righteousness consisted of performing certain actions, but Jesus said it centered in the attitudes of the heart.

Likewise with sin, Jesus said that sins came from the attitudes of the heart. Anger is murder in the heart. Lust is adultery in the heart.

Some of us don't realize that living by the Sermon on the Mount is more difficult to keep than the original Ten Commandments.

It's also the same with the sacrifices with the animals. The ritual doesn't change your heart.

Yea, you give me a lot to comment on at once, lol. I'm getting to 18.
Click to expand...

very good
I agree completely with the mild exception that Romans is correct that we are weak and Hebrews is wrong calling the law useless. My bias is I read as written without having to twist to fit. If someone only had Hebrews to read then they’d get it wrong.
And 2nd Jesus alters nothing in the law. The Pharacees had it wrong adding their tradition to interpret as they wanted instead of as it is plainly written. Jesus/Yeshua correction to their errors doesn’t alter G-ds forever commandments.

My standards for interpretation are actually based on the actions of Messiah that you alluded too.

Good stuff.
I’m enjoying this very much but feel compelled to say as many times as necessary (for anyone joining in and reading along in the middle of this conversation). I’m sharing my beliefs as I see them and why. If you disagree I’m completely ok with it and it won’t hurt my feelings to hear what you believe and why.
 
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#7,574
#7,574
Orangeslice13 said:
very good
I agree completely with the mild exception that Romans is correct that we are weak and Hebrews is wrong calling the law useless. My bias is I read as written without having to twist to fit. If someone only had Hebrews to read then they’d get it wrong.
And 2nd Jesus alters nothing in the law. The Pharacees had it wrong adding their tradition to interpret as they wanted instead of as it is plainly written. Jesus/Yeshua correction to their errors doesn’t alter G-ds forever commandments.

My standards for interpretation are actually based on the actions of Messiah that you alluded too.

Good stuff.
I’m enjoying this very much but feel compelled to say as many times as necessary (for anyone joining in and reading along in the middle of this conversation). I’m sharing my beliefs as I see them and why. If you disagree I’m completely ok with it and it won’t hurt my feelings to hear what you believe and why.
Click to expand...

I think on the "weak and uselessness" its because the Pharisees treated some of the laws as more and less significant than others, which made it "weak and useless" as a whole in God's eye. I think That's where the "not change one letter or stroke" comes from.
 
#7,575
#7,575
Orangeslice13 said:
very good
I agree completely with the mild exception that Romans is correct that we are weak and Hebrews is wrong calling the law useless. My bias is I read as written without having to twist to fit. If someone only had Hebrews to read then they’d get it wrong.
And 2nd Jesus alters nothing in the law. The Pharacees had it wrong adding their tradition to interpret as they wanted instead of as it is plainly written. Jesus/Yeshua correction to their errors doesn’t alter G-ds forever commandments.

My standards for interpretation are actually based on the actions of Messiah that you alluded too.

Good stuff.
I’m enjoying this very much but feel compelled to say as many times as necessary (for anyone joining in and reading along in the middle of this conversation). I’m sharing my beliefs as I see them and why. If you disagree I’m completely ok with it and it won’t hurt my feelings to hear what you believe and why.
Click to expand...

Also, Im quoting this because if I put it in bold you'll miss some if you don't "expand" and I want it to be in full.

Arrgg, I'm getting interrupted every 5 minutes and its annoying. Yea, I'm enjoying it too, I'm seeing some things differently. I'll be glad to agree with you if you said the biggest error with Hebrews is it too complicated. Lol.

My bias is I read as written without having to twist to fit. If someone only had Hebrews to read then they’d get it wrong.
And 2nd Jesus alters nothing in the law.
Click to expand...

I don't see it as "twisting to fit". I see it as it being inspired and and written i as such and therefore requires understanding on a higher level. And I'll go ahead and say it, Jesus is smarter than I am.

I didn't say Jesus altered the law. I said the contrary.
 
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