NIL : The discussion continues...

#1

Coach Jumper

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#1
Can someone start a new 2024 recruiting thread Lmao… we have recruits on campus and all I see are poster blabbering about NIL

Great Idea
The notion that the NCAA is "power-hungry" is nonsense. First, it's a member-driven organization. Major-college athletics has got crass, commercial, and, now, chaotic precisely because the NCAA has never had enough power to combat the commercialism that has corrupted major-college football.

I
Agree with Turbo , and expect some expert Straight talker will interject how wrong Turbo and I are, and I will smile.


will be interesting to read the "honest" disclosures of universities with boosters with deep pockets.

what would be the accomplishments, education and skill to be hired as a NIL university advisor at a power school?

The case summary you quote is pretty sketchy on the court's rationales and those used by the the lower courts which the SC affirmed. A denser but more complete summary can be found here:


The flipside of this decision is just how lame of an argument that the NCAA used to defend their "amateur" system. In brief, they claimed that NCAA sports is a business based in the distinction between amateurism and professionalism and if that distinction were blurred, consumers would have reduced choice in the marketplace since everybody would be a professional.

Kavanaugh, who is not my fave SC justice, punctured this rationale quickly and easily, stating:

"[n]owhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate. . . . The NCAA is not above the law."

I can tell you first hand we offer recruits. The question is does an unproven hs recruit deserve what rickea or tamari earn? If you do well here, you earn pretty good NIL money. My theoretical question to all is fo you think a hs recruit ranked in the 40s should earn as much as rickea jackson who is a potential all american?

I understand a top 10 recruit wanting a big package but now a large contingency is asking for it regardless of ranking.

If a program like Tennessee is recruiting a HS player, that player has the right to ask for whatever they want. Don’t leave money on the table when the market is there.

Of course they're asking for it. There is a sub-culture of wanting things for free in America. That is why NIL is nonsense---and most especially, offering deals to prospects is corrupt, crass and should be banned. These are kids who, for starters, apparently have little respect for the idea of going to college and getting an education. The Ivies have had it right all along---treating athletics as what is is, an extra-curricular activity, one of many. They keep it in perspective.

as proven by the low GPA's?

Kellie Harper's squad posted a 3.397 GPA that stands as the highest rated of any Southeastern Conference women's hoops program for the 2021-22 school year.

or, maybe

The recently completed Fall 2022 semester was a record-breaking term for Tennessee Athletics, as the student-athlete population posted a cumulative 3.32 grade-point average—the highest ever recorded. The previous high—excluding terms with COVID grade-mode flexibility—was 3.27 in Spring 2022.

By marking the 20th consecutive semester in which the Vols and Lady Vols combined to post a GPA of 3.0 or higher, Tennessee Athletics has now maintained that level of academic achievement for a full 10 years.

but what about this past year:

Academically, the Spring 2023 semester saw Tennessee’s more than 550 student-athletes achieve a cumulative grade-point average of 3.38—its highest ever recorded. For the first time ever, all 16 sport programs earned a team GPA of at least a 3.0. This spring also marked the 21st consecutive semester in which the Vols and Lady Vols combined to post a GPA of 3.0 or higher

________

Do your homework,,,they do!

So, you see, the school DOES manage the collective NIL money (Part one of my "plan").

Not being a smartass. Really seeking information. Is Boost Her Club for wbb or for all women's sports. If for basketball, do they disclose whether all players receive an equal amount or are some players paid more than others? The Gamecocks pay a flat rate to all players. 25,000 per year whether you were the #1 prospect or the number 41. Whether you are a true freshman or an all conference transfer. Flat rate, Totally transparent. And I think every school should release that information on what their collective pays. I wanna' know what Texas pays from its NIL collective!

The Individual NIL is where it gets shady, but really only the players' business how much she makes in endorsements, social media, etc. I do believe a team advisor should be able to help enrolled players maximize their PERSONAL earnings. (It's the American way and the reason the S.Ct. smacked the NCAA around) BUT, I don't believe the advisors should be permitted to participate in recruiting or talk to prospects about Individual NIL opportunity until the player enrolls in the school. Whether we are talking hs recruiting or portal.

Just my opinion of course.

Do they have any obligations (beyond the usual team appearances, etc) to get the "base pay". Or is it just plain ole pay for play?

In the University context, 20 to 25K is around what grad students (usually PhD but sometimes masters students) get in support for being Teaching assistants (TAs) or research assistants (RAs), as well as having their tuition covered.

The demands of playing a D1 sport are quite high so that level of salary does not seem outrageous.

As you know, NILS are a way for the NCAA to avoid paying athletes from athletic departments own revenue streams. I am impressed that SC has been able to lock in this kind of base support.
 
#2
#2
Kavanaugh, in his concurring opinion in Alston vs. the NCAA, seems to consider college football programs a conventional business,
and he describes the players as "labor" and "workers." I don't see how anyone can draw those conclusions. College football is a business--but certainly not a conventional one. The programs don't issue stock to private investors or the public; they don't own other businesses; the earnings are directed to funding all the other programs but capital improvements, administrative costs, etc. College sports programs are unique entities.


And the players are certainly not workers. They're not practicing 8 hours a day but rather 2 maybe three hours. The are /students/--not workers. The student/college thing has gotten completely lost in all this money-grubbing by today's players, as has the fact that their four-year scholarships---tuition, room, food, health care, tutoring, counseling---has a very high monetary value. Anybody getting scholarship money is in fact getting PAID, and anybody on full scholarship like football and basketball players are getting paid a LOT---something you never hear from the gimme free money crowd.

Kavanaugh and Harvard Buiness Reivew get int anti-trust legalese with respect to college and pro football that I"m not qualified to address, but he does seem to think that not paying players is "anti-competitive" and restraint of trade. How he or others comes to these notions, or what exactly he means, I don't know. It's stated in the Harvard Biz Review that college football could be subject to anti-trust Sherman Act provisions--but not pro football clubs. That seems counter-intuitive to me, but I'm not an anti-trust expert, of course.

It's worth noting that in 1984 the NCAA won a similar case in the Supreme Court, but some of the justices today seem to have different views--and while //precedent// has always supposed to be a big deal with SCOTUS issues, today's conservative SCOTUS justices have shown a lack of respect for precedent.

The SCOTUS judges do seem to agree that college football //should// be distinct from professional football--but if you play players it most certainly won't be distinct any more. Kavanaugh contends that CF would still be distinct because the players would be in school. Nonsense. The fundamental distinction between amateur and pro is whether one is paid to play or not. If you are being paid, you are essentially professional. Indeed, there are already some college football and basketball players who are /now/ making more money with NIL than some pro basketball and football players. And can you imagine that $hit that a number of CF players will get into if they start getting good money for playing in addition to their scholarships and NIL? Good lord, they aren't going to be up late studying calculus.
 
#3
#3
Assume only one paid visit per school and the others are paid for by the prospect and family. Obviously the constraints financially are on those with limited funds.

Personally wonder what the purpose for such changes.
 
#4
#4
The way I see this is, in my opinion, pretty simple. If the college players get to unionize and get paid to play, the scholarships go away and the player has to pay their own way. College athletics will no longer be able to support itself, or ticket prices soar to unacceptable levels and locks many fans out of being able to attend a game occasionally.

Players will have to sign contracts to play for the school they choose for a set number of years.

In the end, collegiate sports goes away and the elite high school players will be playing in a developmental league, instead of honing their skills playing at the college level for 3-4 years.
 
#6
#6
Look, I think we're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Scholarship athletes should be treated the same as any other scholarship student. Think about someone with a music scholarship or an art scholarship. Are they prevented from giving music lessons? Art lessons? If someone offered them a million dollars to be the spokesperson for a certain brand of clarinet, would they be prevented from making money in this way?

Never

In the same way, high school and college football players and other athletes should be able to pursue legitimate income for public appearances, camps, sponsorships, etc. It's really that simple.
 
#7
#7
This post is aimed people who think athletes shouldn't be paid and their scholarships are enough. As of now the process is messed up we all know that. At the end of the day though the NCAA needs to find the best way to allow compensation thru NIL without afftectiing recruiting.

Why do people think these players shouldn't be compensated for use of their names, images and likeness. Over the years the Schools/NCAA have been making boatloads of money (100s of millions if not more) off these 3 things which they do not have rights to.. There are plenty of ADs, coaches and people within the NCAA who have said it's no secret they've been making money and it's time the student athletes get their due. Why should the schools have ownership of player's NIL? Do people really think it's a fair exchange for tuition and board?

Here is what Kavanaugh said and he's absolutely right -

“The NCAA’s business model would be flatly illegal in any other industry in America,” wrote Justice Brett Kavanaugh in a concurring opinion for the 9-0 ruling in a case of education-related benefits, accusing the multibillion-dollar industry of suppressing athletes’ pay“[E]normous sums of money seem to flow to everyone but the athletes ... many of whom are African American and from lower-income backgrounds.”

For those who think scholarships are enough. Scholarships have zero to do with NIL. Here are some of my thoughts

If you see scholarships as enough compensation you are putting a limit on the value of a player's NIL. It's not up to the schools to value a player's NIL. The only way to do that is to test the market .

A scholarship is only good for 1 year. There are no guarantees the athlete will be paid but 1 year tuition room and board. The school controls this aspect of "compensation" if that's what you call it.

Only a small % of players go pro and even those may not have a lucrative career. Why not let these young adults make the most of the opportunity to use THEIR names THEIR likeness and THIER images to make a living. Nobody should have the ability to profit off your NIL unless you sign those rights away.

Most of these athletes come from lower economic backgrounds NIL money allows the athlete to help their families. Is that. a bad thing?

What about players who get injured and it affects their draft status or even if they are drafted. Another reason to live in the now and allow young adults to take advantage of the opportunity while student athletes to profit off their NIL

The athletes worked hard to get where they are and continuer to work hard to represent their respective schools. It isn't as if they aren't earning NIL money. It's not the fan's job or a schools job to say what a player's NIL is worth that's up to the market place.

Again the process is flawed in a big way it needs to be fixed but I can't see why anyone would be opposed to young adults profiting off their NIL they own their NIL.
 
#8
#8
Kavanaugh, in his concurring opinion in Alston vs. the NCAA, seems to consider college football programs a conventional business,
and he describes the players as "labor" and "workers." I don't see how anyone can draw those conclusions. College football is a business--but certainly not a conventional one. The programs don't issue stock to private investors or the public; they don't own other businesses; the earnings are directed to funding all the other programs but capital improvements, administrative costs, etc. College sports programs are unique entities.


And the players are certainly not workers. They're not practicing 8 hours a day but rather 2 maybe three hours. The are /students/--not workers. The student/college thing has gotten completely lost in all this money-grubbing by today's players, as has the fact that their four-year scholarships---tuition, room, food, health care, tutoring, counseling---has a very high monetary value. Anybody getting scholarship money is in fact getting PAID, and anybody on full scholarship like football and basketball players are getting paid a LOT---something you never hear from the gimme free money crowd.

Kavanaugh and Harvard Buiness Reivew get int anti-trust legalese with respect to college and pro football that I"m not qualified to address, but he does seem to think that not paying players is "anti-competitive" and restraint of trade. How he or others comes to these notions, or what exactly he means, I don't know. It's stated in the Harvard Biz Review that college football could be subject to anti-trust Sherman Act provisions--but not pro football clubs. That seems counter-intuitive to me, but I'm not an anti-trust expert, of course.

It's worth noting that in 1984 the NCAA won a similar case in the Supreme Court, but some of the justices today seem to have different views--and while //precedent// has always supposed to be a big deal with SCOTUS issues, today's conservative SCOTUS justices have shown a lack of respect for precedent.

The SCOTUS judges do seem to agree that college football //should// be distinct from professional football--but if you play players it most certainly won't be distinct any more. Kavanaugh contends that CF would still be distinct because the players would be in school. Nonsense. The fundamental distinction between amateur and pro is whether one is paid to play or not. If you are being paid, you are essentially professional. Indeed, there are already some college football and basketball players who are /now/ making more money with NIL than some pro basketball and football players. And can you imagine that $hit that a number of CF players will get into if they start getting good money for playing in addition to their scholarships and NIL? Good lord, they aren't going to be up late studying calculus.
Lots of privately owned businesses don't issue stock and reinvest back in their business. Technically, the NCAA and the ADs it organizes would be classified as non-profits but non-profits still pay their workers.

The NFL's exemption to anti-trust laws is due to an arbitrary act of Congress and it may not last forever:

That’s because back in the early 1960s, Congress gave the league an exemption to federal antitrust laws, permitting all of the individual teams to act as a single entity when negotiating TV contracts. By bargaining together, the owners have been able to land dramatically more lucrative broadcasting deals. At the time it was drafted, the antitrust exemption very well may have been a benefit to the public, because it required that broadcasters air every team’s games in their home markets, says antitrust economist Andy Schwarz. But subsequent advances in technology, Schwarz says, have made it “an obsolete exemption.”

Getting paid and getting paid market market value are different things. The argument is that the NCAA is restricting competition by artificially constraining players capacity to test their market value. The fact that NILs have become so huge proves that there was a market.

Does anyone confuse the NFL for the XFL? Both leagues pay their players but are seen as very different entities. So, people can keep the NFL and the NCAA straight even if players are getting endorsement $.

To your last point, yep so its best not to play the slaves or they might get into mischief!!! I mean amateurism has certainly kept college athletes from violating any laws or being less than super studious, right?

I am no fan of this conservative SC court but here I think they made the right call.

The NCAA is making huge amounts of money of its marquee college athletes and they use their names, image, and likeliness to build audiences for college game, march madness and everything else that drives the huge TV contracts.

The athletes position is why not let us make some $ from our own NIL. You seem to be hanging on to some stereotypes that college athletes are just lollygagging around campus. But getting to be a D1 generally involves a tremendous amount of work and sacrifice. The time demands are significant and go way beyond formal practice times; there is travel, they are expected to do extra work in the weight room and in the field/gym on their own time, etc. etc. Universities are not using average students as revenue generators and cash cows nor making them publicly accountable for performance failures (and targets for social media abuse).

And the old rules were insanely restrictive. Remember when the starting QB for OSU who was banned for selling some of his Rose bowl memorabilia? I mean seriously, it was his stuff. Why not let him make some $ from it? As pointed out by other posters, a lot of these kids hail from impoverished backgrounds and want to help out their families.

I really can't figure why this NIL issue is such a moral outrage for you. If a college athlete has some company sponsor them for $ while they are on scholarship, it is hard to see this circumstance as being the downfall of Western civilization.
Much like the very low % of college athletes that go pro, the # of Caleb Williams type players who say that can make as much by staying an extra year in college is really quite small (and those star players have always been taken care of -- news flash, Johnny Manziel and Reggie Bush were not pure amateurs!!!!).

On the flipside, NILs can really benefit solid college athletes who never sign a pro contract or get cut after a year or so. For the vast majority, the window on their competitive athletic careers are very small.
 
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#10
#10
Assume only one paid visit per school and the others are paid for by the prospect and family. Obviously the constraints financially are on those with limited funds.

Personally wonder what the purpose for such changes.
I think you just nailed it…😉
 
#14
#14
We have that the Lady Vol boost her club, but we don't tell what the players get. It all depends on the donations that are received. I figure it is at least 25 K as football or men's programs are in no way a part of it. They have their on collective. Then there are the individual deals of which I know Tess, Tamari. Sarah, and Rickea who has an enormous amount all have deals. I don't about any others sure they exists.
Tess does not have a deal with BHC. She is with Bridge Management. All the others either have a guaranteed deal or are on the event series and are paid by events.
 
#16
#16
Thanks to OP for starting this thread . Hopefully, when people start blowing up the annual recruiting threads with NIL stuff, they can be redirected here.

I realize I’m an outsider and my opinion counts for very little, but I think a lot of Bol posters would also prefer the annual recruiting threads to be more about the prospects.
 
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#18
#18
Thanks to OP for starting this thread . Hopefully, when people start blowing up the annual recruiting threads with NIL stuff, they can be redirected here.

I realize I’m an outsider and my opinion counts for very little, but I think a lot of Bol posters would also prefer the annual recruiting threads to be more about the prospects.
I appreciate that
 
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#19
#19
NIL is separate and apart from the Athletic Departments at the schools. The school doesn't offer it.


The schools are certainly offering it in some ways; otherwise the prospects wouldn't know about it or specific offers. Maybe the school recruiters are telling the prospects to contact the third-party handlling NIL, or the 3rd party contacts the prospect, I don't know. But the school is involved. I repeat: NIL should be banned from recruiting.
 
#20
#20
I saw last week where all the Colorado players got a new Ram. Would that be considered NIL? I don't see how, unless all the players signed on to advertise and promote the dealership.
 
#21
#21
I saw last week where all the Colorado players got a new Ram. Would that be considered NIL? I don't see how, unless all the players signed on to advertise and promote the dealership.
I believe it was Utah Football and yes that is an NIL deal. Keep in mind, these are leases only and not the athletes' car
 
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#22
#22
I believe it was Utah Football and yes that is an NIL deal. Keep in mind, these are leases only and not the athletes' car
The story I saw said Colorado, so that's what I wrote. I don't know if they were leases, but the story made it seem like they were given the trucks.
 
#23
#23
The story I saw said Colorado, so that's what I wrote. I don't know if they were leases, but the story made it seem like they were given the trucks.
I read they are one yr leases and will go back. I guess the publicity around the giving and having the guys drive around in them is considered enough promotion.

Rickea has had a couple of sweet rides fm such deals, including the current one yr w Mercedes.
 
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#24
#24
I thought I was coddled and treated exceptionally well when I was an athlete at UT. That was nothing compared to today's "give us
some free mon-ae" entitlement era.
 
#25
#25
I read they are one yr leases and will go back. I guess the publicity around the giving and having the guys drive around in them is considered enough promotion.

Rickea has had a couple of sweet rides fm such deals, including the current one yr w Mercedes.
The story I saw may not have had the "rest of the story" included. I don't remember it saying they were leases, just the players running out to grab their ride.
 
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