NCAA Will Hammer VOLS

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The act of those terminations is in itself holding people accountable. You are proving my point. By the time this gets before the NCAA's Committee on Infractions, there won't be anyone still employed by the University of Tennessee, or anyone still representing the University of Tennessee on the field of play who was involved in these violations. There was no coverup. There was no stonewalling. Tennessee will not be cited for a lack of institutional control. Show me an example of a major college football program who has been "hammered" by the NCAA since Mark Emmert has been President, who wasn't cited for a lack of institutional control. You are wrong about this. The NCAA doesn't throw the book at anyone anymore. They just don't.

What happened at Missouri? Just look. Simple academic tutoring issue that DID involve multiple programs but no hint of players getting paid.

Check what they got. Most importantly, a 1% fine on their budgets, including football, which is a chunk of change AND a year's bowl ban AND scholarships, recruiting, etc AND 3 years probation.

Maybe that's nothing to you but our violations are more substantial and there's apparently a lot of them. That we reported them is great but for there to be so many HAS to point to lack of oversight.

 

[Roustabout]

No. I GET the "they go easy if you self report" theory but it's the EXTENT of the violations before we self reported.

Allegedly =51= Level I violations isn't just a "new thing that happened" and firing the entire staff in the recruiting office indicates this was standard operating procedure.

That's the definition of "failure to create an atmosphere of compliance."

Yes, UT fired the staff, responsible for the violations. Ut initiated their own investigation and took action. That is the opposite of lack of institutional control. The institution took action.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Yes, UT fired the staff, responsible for the violations. Ut initiated their own investigation and took action. That is the opposite of lack of institutional control. The institution took action.

Institutional control, as I understand it, means making sure those things AREN'T standard operating procedure. You know, oversight..... creating an atmosphere of compliance..... so these things don't occur.

If you have 51 violations and end up firing 3 coaches with cause AND the entire recruiting office, you obviously didn't have "institutional control" over recruiting.

 

[BowlBrother85]

What happened at Missouri? Just look. Simple academic tutoring issue that DID involve multiple programs but no hint of players getting paid.

Check what they got. Most importantly, a 1% fine on their budgets, including football, which is a chunk of change AND a year's bowl ban AND scholarships, recruiting, etc AND 3 years probation.

Maybe that's nothing to you but our violations are more substantial and there's apparently a lot of them. That we reported them is great but for there to be so many HAS to point to lack of oversight.

How promptly the University of Tennessee's administration self detected the violations which were occurring will be a factor. You may have a point... and you may not. I'm assuming that the administration reacted swiftly. We will have to wait and see who is right. In the Missouri case, there was evidence that they were turning a blind eye to some of the cheating involving the tutor for over a year.

 

[Bubbs]

Nothing is going to happen to Tennessee sanction wise. Nothing at all.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

How promptly the University of Tennessee's administration self detected the violations which were occurring will be a factor. You may have a point... and you may not. I'm assuming that the administration reacted swiftly. We will have to wait and see who is right. In the Missouri case, there was evidence that they were turning a blind eye to some of the cheating involving the tutor for over a year.

Well, 51 violations tells me this isn't "something new that just started" as does firing an entire office of recruiting.

Apparently this was "the way" and that's why I feel we'll face a hammer. I hope not but that's a lot of violations and a lot of people fired for it to be a "minor issue."

 

[BowlBrother85]

Institutional control, as I understand it, means making sure those things AREN'T standard operating procedure. You know, oversight..... creating an atmosphere of compliance..... so these things don't occur.

If you have 51 violations and end up firing 3 coaches with cause AND the entire recruiting office, you obviously didn't have "institutional control" over recruiting.

Not necessarily. Tennessee will have to prove the efficiency of their administration's oversight. How swiftly they detected the violations from the time they occurred is important. I still come down on the side of there being no evidence of a lack of institutional control... but we don't know everything yet.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Not necessarily. Tennessee will have to prove the efficiency of their administration's oversight. How swiftly they detected the violations from the time they occurred is important. I still come down on the side of there being no evidence of a lack of institutional control... but we don't know everything yet.

Gray and Morris signed LOIs in 2018. I'm just assuming..... of course..... but the university didn't take action until very early in 2021, started investigating in Sept? Oct? 2020?

If there's info before that,

 

[NomadicTendency]

Saban will hire him next off season. You realize how bad the Sark was. He was coaching college games drunk and got another HC job.

Kiffin. Insert Kiffin story.
getting caught on FBI wire taps talking about paying off families (is survivable).

We talking bags full of money.

He could return to college ball as maybe equipment manager for Alabama or Saban’s personal secretary. Key difference being, Sark and Kiffin are actually talented HC’s. Pruitt is garbage and he’s not a HC by trade. Either way I hope he’s enjoying New York and all it has to offer. Cornbread probably had to google “what is snow” when he saw the weather report for New York this week.

 

[Roustabout]

Institutional control, as I understand it, means making sure those things AREN'T standard operating procedure. You know, oversight..... creating an atmosphere of compliance..... so these things don't occur.

If you have 51 violations and end up firing 3 coaches with cause AND the entire recruiting office, you obviously didn't have "institutional control" over recruiting.

People far more experienced on this have already spoken and said UTs penalties will be mitigated because it took the initiative to investigate and swiftly address the infractions. Time will tell.

 

[BruceInLouisville]

As someone who has lived through two NCAA episodes at Louisville, let me share a few things.

Louisville's first scandal involved women being brought into the basketball dorm to impress recruits, with said women doing everything from hanging out with the players to stripping for them to having sex with them -- all paid for (supposedly) by an assistant coach (a graduate assistant, I think). The head coach (Rick Pitino) claimed from the beginning that he knew nothing about it (and still does). The assistant coach was already gone from the school.

The school self-imposed a post-season ban (in a year where the team had a legitimate shot at a Final Four). They did not fire the coach, as the evidence seemed to show that he, indeed, was unaware. Some of the players involved at the time were dis-associated from the school (told not to come around).

What did the NCAA do? It vacated any wins from 2011 to 2015 in which any of the accused players played. It made the school give back the money it earned from the NCAA tournament in those years. AND, it vacated the national championship Louisville won in 2013, and made the school take the banner down.

Then, a few years ago, Louisville was mentioned by name in the FBI investigation looking into cheating. No one at the school was arrested, but it was pretty clear that Pitino was alleged to have been involved. (He denied that, as well, and said that the agents were trying to implicate him to make a deal.)

The school fired Pitino, and most of the assistants. When the AD stood up for Pitino, they fired him too. They did some other things to "clean house."

And what did the NCAA do? They sent a Notice of Allegations that included a Level 1 violation, three level 2 violations, and said that Pitino failed to "promote an atmospher of compliance." At this point, the school and the NCAA are going back and forth, but there is some suspicion that we will get a substantial penalty, including a post-season ban.

Why am I sharing all of this? Because at the same time Louisville was doing all it could to self-impose, take action, and so on, the University of North Carolina (University of No Classes) was caught in a very large academic scandal. But instead of working with the NCAA, they fought and fought and fought, and in the end, they won. The NCAA dropped the case, saying it was "outside of their jurisdiction."

I have no use for the NCAA. They are inconsistent, sometimes vindictive, and appear to be influenced by the school's reputation or the amount of money the school generates for them.

So, I will tell you two things I think: (1) If there was that much paying of players, by the head coach and the other coaches, Tennessee is going to be in a heap of trouble, as the NCAA will want to make an example of them. (2) BUT, do not ever think you can figure out what the NCAA is going to do based on either precedent or logic. What I said in (1) could be completely flipped around, just because you can never tell what they are going to do.

But if I were a betting person, and there actually are 51 violations, I would bet a good chunk of money on Tennessee getting hammered by the NCAA.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

People far more experienced on this have already spoken and said UTs penalties will be mitigated because it took the initiative to investigate and swiftly address the infractions. Time will tell.

I DO agree that, despite taking a lot of flak, Plowman and Boyd did the right thing to "cut deep" and clean things up. Obviously, hiring Glazier and Co was a good sign that the university was willing to do it right.

And I would love to be wrong, but that's a lot of violations. It's tough to spin that as "we caught it early....."

 

[VAVol85]

Gray and Morris signed LOIs in 2018. I'm just assuming..... of course..... but the university didn't take action until very early in 2021, started investigating in Sept? Oct? 2020?

If there's info before that,

Supposedly, the players receiving improper benefits were encouraged to leave. But looking at the transfer portal, it is hard to identify more than 2-3 players who might have been recipients of cash payments. So, I have to question how widespread the problem really was.

The number of violations compared to the number of players that had to leave suggests to me that many of the level one violations were small potatoes not bags of cash.

That may be wishful thinking but it makes me feel better!

 

[BowlBrother85]

As someone who has lived through two NCAA episodes at Louisville, let me share a few things.

Louisville's first scandal involved women being brought into the basketball dorm to impress recruits, with said women doing everything from hanging out with the players to stripping for them to having sex with them -- all paid for (supposedly) by an assistant coach (a graduate assistant, I think). The head coach (Rick Pitino) claimed from the beginning that he knew nothing about it (and still does). The assistant coach was already gone from the school.

The school self-imposed a post-season ban (in a year where the team had a legitimate shot at a Final Four). They did not fire the coach, as the evidence seemed to show that he, indeed, was unaware. Some of the players involved at the time were dis-associated from the school (told not to come around).

What did the NCAA do? It vacated any wins from 2011 to 2015 in which any of the accused players played. It made the school give back the money it earned from the NCAA tournament in those years. AND, it vacated the national championship Louisville won in 2013, and made the school take the banner down.

Then, a few years ago, Louisville was mentioned by name in the FBI investigation looking into cheating. No one at the school was arrested, but it was pretty clear that Pitino was alleged to have been involved. (He denied that, as well, and said that the agents were trying to implicate him to make a deal.)

The school fired Pitino, and most of the assistants. When the AD stood up for Pitino, they fired him too. They did some other things to "clean house."

And what did the NCAA do? They sent a Notice of Allegations that included a Level 1 violation, three level 2 violations, and said that Pitino failed to "promote an atmospher of compliance." At this point, the school and the NCAA are going back and forth, but there is some suspicion that we will get a substantial penalty, including a post-season ban.

Why am I sharing all of this? Because at the same time Louisville was doing all it could to self-impose, take action, and so on, the University of North Carolina (University of No Classes) was caught in a very large academic scandal. But instead of working with the NCAA, they fought and fought and fought, and in the end, they won. The NCAA dropped the case, saying it was "outside of their jurisdiction."

I have no use for the NCAA. They are inconsistent, sometimes vindictive, and appear to be influenced by the school's reputation or the amount of money the school generates for them.

So, I will tell you two things I think: (1) If there was that much paying of players, by the head coach and the other coaches, Tennessee is going to be in a heap of trouble, as the NCAA will want to make an example of them. (2) BUT, do not ever think you can figure out what the NCAA is going to do based on either precedent or logic. What I said in (1) could be completely flipped around, just because you can never tell what they are going to do.

But if I were a betting person, and there actually are 51 violations, I would bet a good chunk of money on Tennessee getting hammered by the NCAA.

So what you're trying to say is.... Tennessee should have compensated their players with booty instead of looty? Lesson learned. We're new at this...

The number of violations being floated about and the possibility of coaches doubling as bag men is pure conjecture at this point and it's mostly circulating from sources who would love to see Tennessee "hammered". I'm taking that stuff with a grain of salt. I do not believe that members of the University of Tennessee coaching staff were directly paying players with cash withdrawals from their own personal checking accounts. That is simply too ridiculous.

 

[ptcarter]

I do not believe that members of the University of Tennessee coaching staff were directly paying players with cash withdrawals from their own personal checking accounts. That is simply too ridiculous.

Every day is an IQ test.. just saying...

 

[BowlBrother85]

Every day is an IQ test.. just saying...
View attachment 348489

Point taken. LOL!

 

[Firebirdparts]

I totally believe it. The bagmen are wealthy, and while they may be sports fans, they aren’t stupid. They would not likely be comfortable with the sort of wanton idiocy displayed by the staff to bring in just mediocre players.

 

[i2amavol]

Institutional control, as I understand it, means making sure those things AREN'T standard operating procedure. You know, oversight..... creating an atmosphere of compliance..... so these things don't occur.

If you have 51 violations and end up firing 3 coaches with cause AND the entire recruiting office, you obviously didn't have "institutional control" over recruiting.

....but you do now.

I don't know of anything more we could have done.

If you do all we did, and still get hammered, what kind of message does that send to all the others? It tells them to hide it all, and fight like heck against the system.

So, I don't know what they will do, but I may just have to give up watching sports on tv if that is there response to this. It sets an example all right. I think Tennessee has already been used as an example enough lately, while the LSU's, North Carolinas, Auburns, Kansas's, etc, get away with murder.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

....but you do now.

I don't know of anything more we could have done.

If you do all we did, and still get hammered, what kind of message does that send to all the others? It tells them to hide it all, and fight like heck against the system.

So, I don't know what they will do, but I may just have to give up watching sports on tv if that is there response to this. It sets an example all right. I think Tennessee has already been used as an example enough lately, while the LSU's, North Carolinas, Auburns, Kansas's, etc, get away with murder.

That's like arguing with a cop about people speeding past you while he's writing your ticket. If you're on radar at 80 in a 55, it doesn't matter who didn't get pulled over..... you did and there's proof.

My hope is that the university CAN somehow show that compliance standards were there and this was completely rogue coaches being insanely dumb. Perhaps that will help lessen the penalties but, in the end, if it IS Gray and Morris......

2019 had several wins (including a Gator Bowl win with a big payout) and the NCAA will likely want money back and wins vacated. That sucks.

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

I totally believe it. The bagmen are wealthy, and while they may be sports fans, they aren’t stupid. They would not likely be comfortable with the sort of wanton idiocy displayed by the staff to bring in just mediocre players.

IDK we have a self proclaimed bagman on this board who, unless he is lying about everything, is dumb enough to regularly post about his exploits.

 

[chrismc1000]

One of these days, Pruitt is going to walk into a bar in Tennessee and get the Twisted Tea treatment.

And I hope the guy who does it has a phone camera with him.

Fyp

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

As someone who has lived through two NCAA episodes at Louisville, let me share a few things.

Louisville's first scandal involved women being brought into the basketball dorm to impress recruits, with said women doing everything from hanging out with the players to stripping for them to having sex with them -- all paid for (supposedly) by an assistant coach (a graduate assistant, I think). The head coach (Rick Pitino) claimed from the beginning that he knew nothing about it (and still does). The assistant coach was already gone from the school.

The school self-imposed a post-season ban (in a year where the team had a legitimate shot at a Final Four). They did not fire the coach, as the evidence seemed to show that he, indeed, was unaware. Some of the players involved at the time were dis-associated from the school (told not to come around).

What did the NCAA do? It vacated any wins from 2011 to 2015 in which any of the accused players played. It made the school give back the money it earned from the NCAA tournament in those years. AND, it vacated the national championship Louisville won in 2013, and made the school take the banner down.

Then, a few years ago, Louisville was mentioned by name in the FBI investigation looking into cheating. No one at the school was arrested, but it was pretty clear that Pitino was alleged to have been involved. (He denied that, as well, and said that the agents were trying to implicate him to make a deal.)

The school fired Pitino, and most of the assistants. When the AD stood up for Pitino, they fired him too. They did some other things to "clean house."

And what did the NCAA do? They sent a Notice of Allegations that included a Level 1 violation, three level 2 violations, and said that Pitino failed to "promote an atmospher of compliance." At this point, the school and the NCAA are going back and forth, but there is some suspicion that we will get a substantial penalty, including a post-season ban.

Why am I sharing all of this? Because at the same time Louisville was doing all it could to self-impose, take action, and so on, the University of North Carolina (University of No Classes) was caught in a very large academic scandal. But instead of working with the NCAA, they fought and fought and fought, and in the end, they won. The NCAA dropped the case, saying it was "outside of their jurisdiction."

I have no use for the NCAA. They are inconsistent, sometimes vindictive, and appear to be influenced by the school's reputation or the amount of money the school generates for them.

So, I will tell you two things I think: (1) If there was that much paying of players, by the head coach and the other coaches, Tennessee is going to be in a heap of trouble, as the NCAA will want to make an example of them. (2) BUT, do not ever think you can figure out what the NCAA is going to do based on either precedent or logic. What I said in (1) could be completely flipped around, just because you can never tell what they are going to do.

But if I were a betting person, and there actually are 51 violations, I would bet a good chunk of money on Tennessee getting hammered by the NCAA.

In the end I think there will have to be a comparison of circumstances between Louisville and here. How long were the payments going on, how many were involved in the actual transfer of money, how many were just caught up in keeping it hidden to keep their jobs, and were the transactions masked to where normal oversight would not have caught them for the duration of time involved? The circumstances of the events that brought it to light will also be key. I don't think any of our infractions were blatantly marched in the front door of an on campus facility like at Louisville.

I have been amazed at the lid that our admin and the NCAA has kept on the details. Don't know if that is good or bad, and hope the end of the investigative portion of the NCAA's efforts can come soon. It would be to our advantage if these actions were limited to the end of Pruitt's tenure when he started feeling the unrest about the on field results. The more limited the time, and the complexity of the coverup schemes will impact their view of our admin's culpability. The way they got CPF out of there tells me our internal guys think the timelines from whistle blower to ouster will be in our favor and that no blind eyes were required upstream. We shall see.

 

[Cartervol]

The way i see it is the NCAA shouldn't do anything to the Vols. They have a administration that has effectively killed the football program without any outside help.

 

[CAVPUT]

The way i see it is the NCAA shouldn't do anything to the Vols. They have a administration that has effectively killed the football program without any outside help.

Exactly. WTH can the NCAA really do to us at this point? Hell, we're already in the middle of a probation. Everything is in the toilet already. I don't sweat anything the NCAA lays on us. We're going to be in the muck for at least 5 years NCAA or not. I don't give a damn about their "penalties". What's one more turd in the toilet bowl.

 

[Roustabout]

I DO agree that, despite taking a lot of flak, Plowman and Boyd did the right thing to "cut deep" and clean things up. Obviously, hiring Glazier and Co was a good sign that the university was willing to do it right.

And I would love to be wrong, but that's a lot of violations. It's tough to spin that as "we caught it early....."

Keep in mind that is all yet to be confirmed. If one player got paid 51 times? Ok. Keep in mind the NCAA has it's plate full with the FBI thing and multiple institutions that have circled the wagons and refused to cooperate.