NBA Playoffs Thread

#1,651
#1,651
n_huffhines said:
Bryon Russell would be elite today? Are you f-ing kidding me? He couldn't win all-defensive honors in an era where guys like PJ Brown and a 34 YO John Stockton were getting those honors.

Starks, Dumars, Coop, and Payton are all smaller than MJ. Klay, Durant, Iggy, and Livingston are all bigger than MJ.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
Click to expand...

Huff how old are you? I'm starting to think you never watched basketball until 2005.

I only named guards. I can name a bunch of 6'7 or better forwards too.

None of the Warriors could guard MJ. Harper and Mike both bigger than Curry and as big as Klay. Both an inch shorter but much stronger. Mike could guard KD. Pip could guard KD. Rodman could guard KD.
 
#1,652
#1,652
I'm not sure the first 2 years of a rule change capture the true impact of the change. But maybe the data are the same now 10+ years removed from that.
 
#1,653
#1,653
k-town_king said:
I'm starting to think you never watched basketball until 2005.

I only named guards. I can name a bunch of 6'7 or better forwards too.

None of the Warriors could guard MJ. Harper and Mike both bigger than Curry and as big as Klay. Both an inch shorter but much stronger. Mike could guard KD. Pip could guard KD. Rodman could guard KD. The Bulls would beat this Warriors team with defense and Jordan putting up 40 something a game.
Click to expand...

Name them
 
#1,654
#1,654
95 Vol Alum said:
I'm not sure the first 2 years of a rule change capture the true impact of the change. But maybe the data are the same now 10+ years removed from that.
Click to expand...

It's a good point, but the data becomes more problematic because a lot of those guys are no longer in their primes for comparison.

The other thing is which way does the pendulum swing? Does the D adjust to the rules better in years 3 and beyond or does offense? It appears the D adjusted better to the zone rule in year 3.
 
#1,657
#1,657
PowerT83 said:
I'll take a shot.
Dominique Wilkins
Larry Bird
Reggie Lewis
Sean Elliott
Grant Hill
Detlef Shremph (sp)
Robert Horry
Larry Johnson
Cliff Robinson
Charles Barkley
Latrell Spreewell
Chris Webber
Paul Pierce
Rasheed Wallace
Click to expand...

I'm confused about what you are naming? We're talking about forwards from the Jordan era who could do a relatively good job defending Jordan.

Sean Elliott was not known for his D. He was pretty soft.
 
#1,658
#1,658
n_huffhines said:
Here's some more data. Average TS% from '90-98 was .535

From '05-10 it was .539
Click to expand...

I thought the debate was 90's MJ vs current GS. Why are you looking at 05-10?

Things that are better in today's game vs the 90's just eyeballing the numbers:

eFG %
3P %
3PA per game
Turnovers per game
TOV%

Steals per game, PF, and FTA/FGA all are down now. To me that confirms that hand checking and physical play for guards was different then vs now, no duh.

The problems with TS% (I think, I'm not an analytics expert) is that it includes FT in the calculation - basically the rules have traded a physical FT laden game for 3pt shooting with less FT. That's my read anyway.
 
#1,659
#1,659
n_huffhines said:
I'm confused about what you are naming? We're talking about forwards from the Jordan era who could do a relatively good job defending Jordan.

Sean Elliott was not known for his D. He was pretty soft.
Click to expand...

Oh. My mistake. I don't recall many coaches placing a forward on MJ. Spreewell was the best but he probably spent more time at the 2 than the 3.
 
#1,660
#1,660
95 Vol Alum said:
I thought the debate was 90's MJ vs current GS. Why are you looking at 05-10?
Click to expand...

Because we were talking of the impact of no hand checking, which changed in '05.

Things that are better in today's game vs the 90's just eyeballing the numbers:

eFG %
3P %
3PA per game
Turnovers per game
TOV%

Steals per game, PF, and FTA/FGA all are down now. To me that confirms that hand checking and physical play for guards was different then vs now, no duh.

The problems with TS% (I think, I'm not an analytics expert) is that it includes FT in the calculation - basically the rules have traded a physical FT laden game for 3pt shooting with less FT. That's my read anyway.
Click to expand...

You make good points. There are literally problems with every stat when you compare era to era.
 
#1,661
#1,661
I contend that it has taken the league 8-10 years to really figure out how to exploit the hand checking change. You now can see the new "era" in full effect.
 
#1,662
#1,662
95 Vol Alum said:
I contend that it has taken the league 8-10 years to really figure out how to exploit the hand checking change. You now can see the new "era" in full effect.
Click to expand...

I don't get why it would take so long. Seems like D would be harder to adjust than O. Any theories? The makeup of centers changed a lot during that time. That affects both ends of the floor, so not sure what to make of that.

Are we sure the eFG% improvement is about hand checking? What if it's all about having 4 3-point shooters on the floor and teams using data to avoid bad shots (90's NBA was all about long 2's, which is usually a bad shot).

That's a big problem with waiting 10 years to say "this is the impact"...too much else has changed since the rule change (some causal changes and some uncorrelated, I'm sure).
 
#1,663
#1,663
n_huffhines said:
I don't get why it would take so long. Seems like D would be harder to adjust than O. Any theories? The makeup of centers changed a lot during that time. That affects both ends of the floor, so not sure what to make of that.

Are we sure the eFG% improvement is about hand checking? What if it's all about having 4 3-point shooters on the floor and teams using data to avoid bad shots (90's NBA was all about long 2's, which is usually a bad shot).

That's a big problem with waiting 10 years to say "this is the impact"...too much else has changed since the rule change (some causal changes and some uncorrelated, I'm sure).
Click to expand...

More to do with “3’s are worth more than 2’s” and how the Suns/Heat applied that more than hand checking imo
 
#1,664
#1,664
I think it took a while for the bigs to adjust. The league has slowly devalued the paint clogging center but had to churn through the inventory. Big guys are working on developing an outside shot and improving passing instead of an inside, back to the basket post game. Those skills take a while to develop and replicate at the lower levels.

Seems like teams kept playing the old way under the new rules for several years. But that's a guess.

I think it is both - both style/analytics & rules invite more 3 point attempts.
 
#1,665
#1,665
95 Vol Alum said:
I think it took a while for the bigs to adjust. The league has slowly devalued the paint clogging center but had to churn through the inventory. Big guys are working on developing an outside shot and improving passing instead of an inside, back to the basket post game. Those skills take a while to develop and replicate at the lower levels.

Seems like teams kept playing the old way under the new rules for several years. But that's a guess.

I think it is both - both style/analytics & rules invite more 3 point attempts.
Click to expand...

Even if you could hand check today, you couldn't do it on shooters holding the ball. You put your hand out (not even "on" the player) and they use that hand against you. Curry, Durant, Harden, etc....they all have that move where they can create contact and draw the foul when you hang your hand out there.
 
#1,666
#1,666
Well, the officiating has evolved around styles and players too. It's always evolving which is why these debates are so hard. I do believe that great players would play great in any era.
 
#1,667
#1,667
I'm working off memory here so there is risk that it is selective, but I don't necessarily agree that the 90's were about taking bad 2's. I would say they were mostly about post play/backing down your guy (close 2's - Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq) and driving to the basket (MJ, Wilkins, Drexler, Iverson, Hill). Not to say that bad 2's weren't taken, just not how I recall the league overall.
 
#1,668
#1,668
95 Vol Alum said:
Well, the officiating has evolved around styles and players too. It's always evolving which is why these debates are so hard. I do believe that great players would play great in any era.
Click to expand...

Blows my mind we have guys in their 50’s and 60’s refing games between guys in their 20’s and early 30’s. It’s so freaking stupid.
 
#1,669
#1,669
95 Vol Alum said:
I'm working off memory here so there is risk that it is selective, but I don't necessarily agree that the 90's were about taking bad 2's. I would say they were mostly about post play/backing down your guy (close 2's - Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq) and driving to the basket (MJ, Wilkins, Drexler, Iverson, Hill). Not to say that bad 2's weren't taken, just not how I recall the league overall.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying relatively speaking. Malone got a lot of buckets on long 2's, as did Jordan. One of the things that made the Jazz such a threat was Malone was one of the best at the pick n pop....still not a great shot, tho, unless wide open. We've replaced a lot of those long 2's with 3's and prior to the 90's, there were fewer long 2's, as I understand it, but IDK because I didn't watch until like '92.
 
#1,670
#1,670
zjcvols said:
Blows my mind we have guys in their 50’s and 60’s refing games between guys in their 20’s and early 30’s. It’s so freaking stupid.
Click to expand...

Dick Bavetta, Steve Javie and Dan Crawford all disagree.

On the other hand, Lauren Holtkamp thinks your post is awesome.
 
#1,671
#1,671
BigOrangeTrain said:
What makes you think the Warriors will dominate? The Cavs were a few dumb plays from beating them last game. I think the whole invincibility aura surrounding GS is gone. I believe the Cavs know they can beat them. They just have to get their head right.
Click to expand...

I just felt like the Warriors were due for a lights-out shooting night, and as it turned out, they were.
 
#1,673
#1,673
n_huffhines said:
Here are the star perimeter players whose primes (mostly) occurred during the rule changes. The "no duh" takeaway is that banning hand checks helped offense, but the real takeaway is that I don't think it helps nearly as much as people think.

No ****, there is a Bleacher Report article circulating suggesting MJ could score 50 ppg in this era.
Click to expand...

Its becoming clear that you really didnt watch much basketball if you think hand checks didnt matter that much.

Its not out of the realm of possibility that MJ could have averaged 50 in this eara a few times. He wouldnt have done it consistently, but for a season or 2? I could see it. He was just that good. And I will reiterate, there are no big men to stop him in the lane. MJ would embarrass guys like Draymond.
 
#1,674
#1,674
BigOrangeTrain said:
Its becoming clear that you really didnt watch much basketball if you think hand checks didnt matter that much.

Its not out of the realm of possibility that MJ could have averaged 50 in this eara a few times. He wouldnt have done it consistently, but for a season or 2? I could see it. He was just that good. And I will reiterate, there are no big men to stop him in the lane. MJ would embarrass guys like Draymond.
Click to expand...
50 ppg? That’s completely absurd
 
#1,675
#1,675
BigOrangeTrain said:
Its becoming clear that you really didnt watch much basketball if you think hand checks didnt matter that much.

Its not out of the realm of possibility that MJ could have averaged 50 in this eara a few times. He wouldnt have done it consistently, but for a season or 2? I could see it. He was just that good. And I will reiterate, there are no big men to stop him in the lane. MJ would embarrass guys like Draymond.
Click to expand...

Ostertag x 2, Ervin Johnson, Mark West, Divac, and Kevin Duckworth...these are the centers MJ faced in Finals. You didn't see David Robinson every game, just like you don't see Deandre Jordan every game now.
 
New Posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

Advertisement



Back
Top