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#2,201
#2,201
Yeah, he's definitely a good defender, I just wondered about matchups. Tim Duncan got a lot of praise for his defensive contribution and he usually takes the lesser of the 2 opposing bigs. I think it's great strategy-wise, but must be considered when evaluating.
 
#2,202
#2,202
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, he's definitely a good defender, I just wondered about matchups. Tim Duncan got a lot of praise for his defensive contribution and he usually takes the lesser of the 2 opposing bigs. I think it's great strategy-wise, but must be considered when evaluating.
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Well it's pretty rare that the main offensive weapon guards the opposing teams main weapon for long periods of time. LBJ does though not as much as people think. GP did some depending on who they were playing. PG does probably more than any top 15 player. Even MJ usually guarded the second guy and Pip drew the top guy. Kobe would some as well. Clutch time and the playoffs are a different story, most top teams have a really solid defender though, so there is a grading curve for most every top player.
 
#2,203
#2,203
I wasn't implying KD is a top 5 defensive player btw. Just a cool stat that he leads offensively and defensively, I doubt that has happened very many times.
 
#2,205
#2,205
BadJerry20 said:
Well it's pretty rare that the main offensive weapon guards the opposing teams main weapon for long periods of time. LBJ does though not as much as people think. GP did some depending on who they were playing. PG does probably more than any top 15 player. Even MJ usually guarded the second guy and Pip drew the top guy. Kobe would some as well. Clutch time and the playoffs are a different story, most top teams have a really solid defender though, so there is a grading curve for most every top player.
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Well, there are 2 sides to the coin, too. The stat you showed would give Durant obvious preference as a defender if he guards less active players. But other stats would suffer. For example:

Say Durant averages 1 steal and 6 defensive rebounds:

If Durant guards Lebron he probably gives up 30 points, but maybe he gets 2 steals (because Lebron has the ball so much there is opportunity for theft), and he only gets 5 rebounds because Lebron is a good rebounder.

Then he guards Korver...he only surrenders 14 points but gets 0 steals, and only 3 def. rebounds because he's usually 20 feet from the basket.

This kind of game-to-game variance is why you have to look at averages. One game's stat line can paint a picture, but it can be fairly inaccurate.
 
#2,206
#2,206
n_huffhines said:
Well, there are 2 sides to the coin, too. The stat you showed would give Durant obvious preference as a defender if he guards less active players. But other stats would suffer. For example:

Say Durant averages 1 steal and 6 defensive rebounds:

If Durant guards Lebron he probably gives up 30 points, but maybe he gets 2 steals (because Lebron has the ball so much there is opportunity for theft), and he only gets 5 rebounds because Lebron is a good rebounder.

Then he guards Korver...he only surrenders 14 points but gets 0 steals, and only 3 def. rebounds because he's usually 20 feet from the basket.

This kind of game-to-game variance is why you have to look at averages. One game's stat line can paint a picture, but it can be fairly inaccurate.
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Thank you Captain Obvious. :)
 
#2,207
#2,207
BadJerry20 said:
I wasn't implying KD is a top 5 defensive player btw. Just a cool stat that he leads offensively and defensively, I doubt that has happened very many times.
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I got what you were saying, if anybody does. The misinterpretation of stats I share is prevalent.
 
#2,208
#2,208
n_huffhines said:
Well, there are 2 sides to the coin, too. The stat you showed would give Durant obvious preference as a defender if he guards less active players. But other stats would suffer. For example:

Say Durant averages 1 steal and 6 defensive rebounds:

If Durant guards Lebron he probably gives up 30 points, but maybe he gets 2 steals (because Lebron has the ball so much there is opportunity for theft), and he only gets 5 rebounds because Lebron is a good rebounder.

Then he guards Korver...he only surrenders 14 points but gets 0 steals, and only 3 def. rebounds because he's usually 20 feet from the basket.

This kind of game-to-game variance is why you have to look at averages. One game's stat line can paint a picture, but it can be fairly inaccurate.
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Every player does the same thing, so I don't see the point. LBJ will guard KD one day and Korver the next it works itself out. As far as steals or blocks they don't equate to being a good or bad defender.

Edit: nvm I got you, I had a stupid moment there.
 
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#2,209
#2,209
How many guys would you all consider elite on both ends of the floor? I mean being able to do what you want on offense, while being able to go straight up man and lock a guy down?

MJ, LBJ, GP, Kobe, McHale, Olajuwon, Kareem?
 
#2,210
#2,210
BadJerry20 said:
How many guys would you all consider elite on both ends of the floor? I mean being able to do what you want on offense, while being able to go straight up man and lock a guy down?

MJ, LBJ, GP, Kobe, McHale, Olajuwon, Kareem?
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Discussions like this make me sad that Grant Hill couldn't stay healthy.
 
#2,212
#2,212
PG is close to being one of those guys, which is why I think so highly of him. The NBA is a specialist league, a guy that can do it all is extremely rare.
 
#2,215
#2,215
Notorious B.E.N said:
Chris Paul or nah?
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Tough one. He's really really close, offensively no question, defensively he's really good but is he MJ, GP, LBJ lock down good? Man idk. He's in the Joe Dumars/Pippen area for me, next tier I guess. Though they are second because they weren't as dominant offensively. J Kidd is there too.
 
#2,216
#2,216
BadJerry20 said:
Tough one. He's really really close, offensively no question, defensively he's really good but is he MJ, GP, LBJ lock down good? Man idk. He's in the Joe Dumars/Pippen area for me, next tier I guess. Though they are second because they weren't as dominant offensively. J Kidd is there too.
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I was gonna say Kidd but he wasn't really a good shooter was he? Great great great "floor general", but not much of a scorer? I may be wrong.
 
#2,217
#2,217
Notorious B.E.N said:
I was gonna say Kidd but he wasn't really a good shooter was he? Great great great "floor general", but not much of a scorer? I may be wrong.
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He became a great shooter late when the rest of his game started declining. 40% from the field for his career Iirc. Early you could ignore him as a scorer. Great defender though.
 
#2,221
#2,221
BadJerry20 said:
How many guys would you all consider elite on both ends of the floor? I mean being able to do what you want on offense, while being able to go straight up man and lock a guy down?

MJ, LBJ, GP, Kobe, McHale, Olajuwon, Kareem?
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I don't think Kobe was ever good enough on offense and I don't know that McHale was good enough on D.

Kobe could score in bulk, but efficiency was only impressive a couple seasons and he was never a very good distributor. McHale was a great shot blocker, but I'm not convinced he was an all-around defender.
 
#2,222
#2,222
n_huffhines said:
I don't think Kobe was ever good enough on offense and I don't know that McHale was good enough on D.

Kobe could score in bulk, but efficiency was only impressive a couple seasons and he was never a very good distributor. McHale was a great shot blocker, but I'm not convinced he was an all-around defender.
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Kobe could do anything he wanted on offense so he makes it for me, though I hate his shot selection. McHale could smother guys on D, really long arms. One of the more underrated players by fans ever. IMO For what it's worth Chuck has said repeatedly McHale was his worst match up. Btw as previously stated I don't put a lot of stock in blocks and steals when evaluating great one on one defenders.
 
#2,223
#2,223
BadJerry20 said:
You think Paul is lockdown good on D? I'm iffy, convince me cause I want to say yes. Lol
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He averages more steals than fouls* which indicates quickness, athleticism, good decision-making and awareness. Also a good rebounder for his position, which indicates he is physical.

He also passes my eye test.

*Rubio and Lawson are the only other guys in the top 20 for steals who are remotely close to having more steals than fouls and they are both -9.
 
#2,224
#2,224
BadJerry20 said:
Kobe could do anything he wanted on offense so he makes it for me, though I hate his shot selection. McHale could smother guys on D, really long arms. One of the more underrated players by fans ever. IMO For what it's worth Chuck has said repeatedly McHale was his worst match up. Btw as previously stated I don't put a lot of stock in blocks and steals when evaluating great one on one defenders.
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Talent-wise, I agree on Kobe. If we're talking talent, and not results then yeah.

You should put more stock in blocks and steals. Not saying it tells you everything, but when you have the most steals on average, it's a strong indication that you are a lot quicker and more aware than the competition, which lends to good defense.
 
#2,225
#2,225
BadJerry20 said:
Kobe could do anything he wanted on offense so he makes it for me, though I hate his shot selection. McHale could smother guys on D, really long arms. One of the more underrated players by fans ever. IMO For what it's worth Chuck has said repeatedly McHale was his worst match up. Btw as previously stated I don't put a lot of stock in blocks and steals when evaluating great one on one defenders.
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Chuck also says almost once a week that McHale was the best player he ever played with.
 
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