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#2,226
#2,226
n_huffhines said:
He averages more steals than fouls* which indicates quickness, athleticism, good decision-making and awareness. Also a good rebounder for his position, which indicates he is physical.

He also passes my eye test.

*Rubio and Lawson are the only other guys in the top 20 for steals who are remotely close to having more steals than fouls and they are both -9.
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You have an eye test? Who knew!?
 
#2,227
#2,227
n_huffhines said:
He averages more steals than fouls* which indicates quickness, athleticism, good decision-making and awareness. Also a good rebounder for his position, which indicates he is physical.

He also passes my eye test.

*Rubio and Lawson are the only other guys in the top 20 for steals who are remotely close to having more steals than fouls and they are both -9.
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Meh Monta Ellis did it last year, A.I. did it for his career and for 10 straight years. Conversely Pippen never did it, MJ did it 3 times, and GP once. So that stats doesn't carry a lot of weight. You can play the passing lanes and get steals, doesn't mean you are playing good man to man D.
 
#2,228
#2,228
n_huffhines said:
Talent-wise, I agree on Kobe. If we're talking talent, and not results then yeah.

You should put more stock in blocks and steals. Not saying it tells you everything, but when you have the most steals on average, it's a strong indication that you are a lot quicker and more aware than the competition, which lends to good defense.
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See my above post. Steals can be inflated by being good in passing lanes, and blocks by being a good help side defender. It doesn't make you a good one on one defender. Rodman never averaged a block or a steal in his career. He was still one of the 5 greatest defenders I ever saw. I'm not saying I discount steals and blocks, but they have to be closer examined. IMO
 
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#2,231
#2,231
BadJerry20 said:
See my above post. Steals can be inflated by being good in passing lanes, and blocks by being a good help side defender. It doesn't make you a good one on one defender. Rodman never averaged a block or a steal in his career. He was still one of the 5 greatest defenders I ever saw. I'm not saying I discount steals and blocks, but they have to be closer examined. IMO
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Right, but you get them by being quick, athletic, and aware....all attributes that make for good on-the-ball defense.

Stats do indicate that Rodman was a good defender, they are just different stats. His unbelievable rebounding stats indicate how physical and athletic he was. Rodman is also the exception to the rule. You'd be hard-pressed to name many "great" defenders who didn't have lots of steals and/or blocks.
 
#2,233
#2,233
n_huffhines said:
Right, but you get them by being quick, athletic, and aware....all attributes that make for good on-the-ball defense.

Stats do indicate that Rodman was a good defender, they are just different stats. His unbelievable rebounding stats indicate how physical and athletic he was. Rodman is also the exception to the rule. You'd be hard-pressed to name many "great" defenders who didn't have lots of steals and/or blocks.
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Agreed, but you can still have those without being a great one on one defender. Just like you can be a great defender without them.


Off the top of my head Oakley, Dumars, Bowen, and Battier. I can name a ton of guys with blocks or steals that were not great one on one defenders.
 
#2,234
#2,234
Honestly even most of the great defenders got their numbers by helping, not man up. MJ and Pips steals were mostly playing the passing lane, GPs was sagging to help. Man up steals and blocks are not very common, that's another reason I take those numbers with a grain of salt when deciding great defenders.
 
#2,235
#2,235
BadJerry20 said:
Honestly even most of the great defenders got their numbers by helping, not man up. MJ and Pips steals were mostly playing the passing lane, GPs was sagging to help. Man up steals and blocks are not very common, that's another reason I take those numbers with a grain of salt when deciding great defenders.
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But quick hands/reaction time in those passing lanes are part of being a good defender.
 
#2,236
#2,236
Notorious B.E.N said:
But quick hands/reaction time in those passing lanes are part of being a good defender.
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I agree with that 100%. I wasn't discounting those 3's steals numbers, just saying even elite don't get their numbers man up. Numbers can be very skewed when it comes to defensive greatness. Shawn Bradley averaged 2.5 blocks per game, he was a terrible 1 on 1 defender.
 
#2,237
#2,237
BadJerry20 said:
I agree with that 100%. I wasn't discounting those 3's steals numbers, just saying even elite don't get their numbers man up. Numbers can be very skewed when it comes to defensive greatness. Shawn Bradley averaged 2.5 blocks per game, he was a terrible 1 on 1 defender.
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13 feet tall and only 2.5 blocks a game?
 
#2,238
#2,238
BadJerry20 said:
Agreed, but you can still have those without being a great one on one defender. Just like you can be a great defender without them.

Off the top of my head Oakley, Dumars, Bowen, and Battier. I can name a ton of guys with blocks or steals that were not great one on one defenders.
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I would guess if you have both steals and blocks you are a good defender. If you are good at just steals then you may not be a very good defender, but that's why I looked at Paul's steals, rebounds, and fouls. Pretty sure anyone with his numbers will be considered an elite defender.

Just for kicks:

When GP was 28 he averaged 2.2 steals, 4.2 rebounds, and 2.3 fouls per 36. All well above average.

CP3 is 28 and is averaging 2.6 steals, 4.8 rebounds, and 2.5 fouls per 36.

Guys with numbers like this are all great defenders, IMO. I have yet to find the exception to the rule.
 
#2,239
#2,239
Notorious B.E.N said:
13 feet tall and only 2.5 blocks a game?
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He played 23.5 mpg for his career, so 2.5 bpg is pretty damn good.

I disagree that Bradley was a bad one-on-one defender. He was slow and made to look foolish at times, which is it what we tend to remember.
 
#2,241
#2,241
BTW, I think there is way too much emphasis on one-on-one defense in evaluating defense. Help D is where games are won and lost, for the most part. The average PG can beat his man off the dribble.
 
#2,243
#2,243
n_huffhines said:
He played 23.5 mpg for his career, so 2.5 bpg is pretty damn good.

I disagree that Bradley was a bad one-on-one defender. He was slow and made to look foolish at times, which is it what we tend to remember.
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He got *** pounded by every solid center in the league.
 
#2,244
#2,244
n_huffhines said:
I would guess if you have both steals and blocks you are a good defender. If you are good at just steals then you may not be a very good defender, but that's why I looked at Paul's steals, rebounds, and fouls. Pretty sure anyone with his numbers will be considered an elite defender.

Just for kicks:

When GP was 28 he averaged 2.2 steals, 4.2 rebounds, and 2.3 fouls per 36. All well above average.

CP3 is 28 and is averaging 2.6 steals, 4.8 rebounds, and 2.5 fouls per 36.

Guys with numbers like this are all great defenders, IMO. I have yet to find the exception to the rule.
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Please don't compare his d to GPs. Lol. A.I. 4.5 rebs 2.8 stls and 1.7 fouls. Exception to the rule. Again stls to fouls is a silly argument. By those numbers A.I.>>>both

Btw this was partially a joke Huff. :)
 
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#2,245
#2,245
n_huffhines said:
BTW, I think there is way too much emphasis on one-on-one defense in evaluating defense. Help D is where games are won and lost, for the most part. The average PG can beat his man off the dribble.
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I agree, but the initial conversation was great offensive players that could play lockdown d. Because so few guys are good at both.

Ftr the reason I limited my initial thought to man up, is it would be very cluttered with bigs that were great at help d. I was thinking more guys that were just straight up great on both ends. I am surprised you haven't brought up Stockton though.
 
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