Nashville Autonomous Zone

#651
#651
Roustabout said:
I was pointing to the fact that this person had been arrested over 60 times yet was walking the streets free. The implication is that black families are split up because systemic policies (specifically minor drug offenses) are breaking them apart. The reality is the opposite. The system bends over backwards to keep people out of prison.
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I don't know what to show you, other than laws on the books and actual statistics, to counter your anecdotes. Stay convinced you're right. I don't care.
 
#652
#652
Wafflestomper said:
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It looks as if 15% of state prisoners add up to about 200,000 people. The Bureau of Prisons website states that nearly half of federal inmates are there for drug crimes. I don't know what statistics you're basing your claims on, but as I've said, I don't really care if they have a single syringe or a truckload of them. And it isn't justice to put someone in jail for what they might do as a result of being a drug addict.
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but they weren't JUST CONVICTED of a drug offense (unless it is dealing drugs)....that's the point.

If i have a guy who was out on parole for armed robbery, theft, resisting, whatever and then gets arrested for possession of drugs, he gets counted in these stats, but he's not in prison JUST FOR DRUGS
 
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#653
#653
Rickyvol77 said:
but they weren't JUST CONVICTED of a drug offense (unless it is dealing drugs)....that's the point.

If i have a guy who was out on parole for armed robbery, theft, resisting, whatever and then gets arrested for possession of drugs, he gets counted in these stats, but he's not in prison JUST FOR DRUGS
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Read it again. Also, do you have a link supporting the assertion that people convicted of, say, violent crimes along with drugs are tallied as drug crime? The BOP site lists them separately. The highlighted text below states that they're not reported as drug crime if they're accompanied by a more serious offense.

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#654
#654
Wafflestomper said:
Read it again. Also, do you have a link supporting the assertion that people convicted of, say, violent crimes along with drugs are tallied as drug crime? The BOP site lists them separately. The highlighted text below states that they're not reported as drug crime if they're accompanied by a more serious offense.

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no you are not getting what i am saying

Timmy was arrested in 2002 for shoplifting and assault; he served a little time and got probation

In 2004, Timmy was arrested for felony theft and DUI, his probation was revoked and served 2 years in prison

in 2008, Timmy was arrested again for assault, drugs, robbery and was sentenced to 5 years in prison

in 2019, Timmy (freshly out of prison and on probation) is arrested of possession of drugs, which violates his probation and he gets 5 more years.

This study would say that Timmy is in prison and he was only arrested for possession of drugs, but that by itself is not what landed Timmy all that prison time.
 
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#655
#655
Rickyvol77 said:
no you are not getting what i am saying

Timmy was arrested in 2002 for shoplifting and assault; he served a little time and got probation

In 2004, Timmy was arrested for felony theft and DUI, his probation was revoked and served 2 years in prison

in 2008, Timmy was arrested again for assault, drugs, robbery and was sentenced to 5 years in prison

in 2019, Timmy (freshly out of prison and on probation) is arrested of possession of drugs, which violates his probation and he gets 5 more years.

This study would say that Timmy is in prison and he was only arrested for possession of drugs, but that by itself is not what landed Timmy all that prison time.
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Well then what's the point of mandatory minimum sentences? Timmy could just as well have not been guilty of any crime and find himself in federal pound-me-in-the-*** prison for at least 5 years for 5 grams of meth.
 
#656
#656
Wafflestomper said:
I don't know what to show you, other than laws on the books and actual statistics, to counter your anecdotes. Stay convinced you're right. I don't care.
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I’ve sat in board meetings with mountains of data, demographics and even consulted with city leaders. My wife has worked on the prosecution side for 15 years.
Most the people I meet are against there strikes, private prisons and lessening minor drug offenses. That will help but not much. We have some sick and twisted people who will always find themselves in conflict with authority.
 
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#657
#657
Wafflestomper said:
Well then what's the point of mandatory minimum sentences? Timmy could just as well have not been guilty of any crime and find himself in federal pound-me-in-the-*** prison for at least 5 years for 5 grams of meth.
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To dissuade career criminals like Timmy and to keep them off the street. The problem is that they aren’t holding everyone for the non drug stuff too. That’s a location by location issue not an overall issue
 
#659
#659
Rickyvol77 said:
To dissuade career criminals like Timmy and to keep them off the street. The problem is that they aren’t holding everyone for the non drug stuff too. That’s a location by location issue not an overall issue
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But if Timmy's only crime is holding 5g of meth that doesn't make him a perpetual danger to society. Sure, if he's been robbing and assaulting people then he should go to jail. It seems like your contention is that none of them are just casual users or sellers who aren't also engaged in other, more nefarious activities as well. If you have actual evidence to back this up then please provide it.

I showed you text from a link which stated that roughly 200,000 people are incarcerated with drug possession/sales being the most serious offense they were charged with. I have a hard time believing that all (or even most) of them were arrested for violent crimes, subsequently let out on parole and arrested again for only drug possession, and then their statistics are tallied as drug crimes rather than something else.

Do you have any evidence for the efficacy of mandatory minimum sentences in dissuading people from doing or selling drugs?
 
#660
#660
Roustabout said:
I’ve sat in board meetings with mountains of data, demographics and even consulted with city leaders. My wife has worked on the prosecution side for 15 years.
Most the people I meet are against there strikes, private prisons and lessening minor drug offenses. That will help but not much. We have some sick and twisted people who will always find themselves in conflict with authority.
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Care to provide a link to the mountains of data supporting your position?
 
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#662
#662
Roustabout said:
There is nothing top secret about crime stats. Homelessness. Single parents. Teen pregnancy.

If we want to lessen police encounters we need to lessen crime.
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Ok, so removing a parent from the home due to a drug conviction would be a cause of a single parent home, right? What about someone convicted of felony possession of drugs who subsequently can't get a job? Is that a potential contributor to homelessness?

"But that doesn't happen! The system bends over backwards to keep people out of jail! Here's a link to someone arrested 60 times who was free! Think about what people in prison must have done if this guy was wandering around the street!"

Care to provide evidence that this doesn't happen?

"I have been in board meetings! My wife....for 15 years! Mountains of evidence! Rabble!"

Okay then. So no actual evidence but some personal anecdotes?

"What contributes to crime is homelessness, single parent homes, and teen pregnancy."

And we're back to start again. This is the roustabout roundabout.
 
#663
#663
Wafflestomper said:
Ok, so removing a parent from the home due to a drug conviction would be a cause of a single parent home, right? What about someone convicted of felony possession of drugs who subsequently can't get a job? Is that a potential contributor to homelessness?

"But that doesn't happen! The system bends over backwards to keep people out of jail! Here's a link to someone arrested 60 times who was free! Think about what people in prison must have done if this guy was wandering around the street!"

Care to provide evidence that this doesn't happen?

"I have been in board meetings! My wife....for 15 years! Mountains of evidence! Rabble!"

Okay then. So no actual evidence but some personal anecdotes?

"What contributes to crime is homelessness, single parent homes, and teen pregnancy."

And we're back to start again. This is the roustabout roundabout.
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One thing I can tell you from my time in the system is that in a lot of cases drug offenders just want to squash their time. I remember something called drug court that was a diversion program. Some Tim full advantage but many I knew and encountered didn't want to participate because it required them to go through a number of steps...I do not remember what those were. Many preferred to just lay down and finish their time. The point is most of them knew they were just going to go back to doing what they were doing anyway so they knew they would fail.

Here are some things I think would work based on my experience.

Decriminalize marijuana under a quarter pound unless they have a license and work in a legal dispensary etc.

Treatment options for harder more addictive drugs need to be increased.....a lot.

No mandatory sentences for possession level offenses, treatment should be mandatory for the first two offenses. On the third the offender spends 2 weeks in jail and then goes to the third more intensive treatment option. I do think there need to be minimum sentences for trafficking though.

That will not solve most of the problems, despite what everyone may think many criminals are just that. They will always deal and rob because it's easy and do drugs because they don't like who they are. But those who just make mistakes and want to do better will be afforded the opportunity.

Mental health is another issue I saw in my time in the system, you wouldn't believe how many mentally ill people there are in the system who have no business in a facility like those. Not just violent people either though there are many of those too.
 
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#664
#664
Sigh... until it becomes less financially advantageous to not have the father in the home y’all are just howling in the wind.

You can do whatever you want to keep them out of jail, but they still aren’t going to be living with their kids because that is a direct negative impact on mom’s wallet. Both sides of the equation will need to be addressed for any positive change to occur.
 
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#665
#665
Wafflestomper said:
Well then what's the point of mandatory minimum sentences? Timmy could just as well have not been guilty of any crime and find himself in federal pound-me-in-the-*** prison for at least 5 years for 5 grams of meth.
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Wait, I thought it was white collar prison...

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Hey Peter, man, watch your...

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#666
#666
Wafflestomper said:
Ok, so removing a parent from the home due to a drug conviction would be a cause of a single parent home, right? What about someone convicted of felony possession of drugs who subsequently can't get a job? Is that a potential contributor to homelessness?

"But that doesn't happen! The system bends over backwards to keep people out of jail! Here's a link to someone arrested 60 times who was free! Think about what people in prison must have done if this guy was wandering around the street!"

Care to provide evidence that this doesn't happen?

"I have been in board meetings! My wife....for 15 years! Mountains of evidence! Rabble!"

Okay then. So no actual evidence but some personal anecdotes?

"What contributes to crime is homelessness, single parent homes, and teen pregnancy."

And we're back to start again. This is the roustabout roundabout.
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Then get bent. If you’re going to mock my years of experience in this area, as well as my wife’s 15+ years of handling these cases, then I have nothing to say to you.
If you really think minor offenses are causing DCS to break up families the you’re full of ****. You can’t reference some made up anecdote and the dismiss a decade and a half of working in These communities.
 
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#667
#667
Roustabout said:
Then get bent. If you’re going to mock my years of experience in this area, as well as my wife’s 15+ years of handling these cases, then I have nothing to say to you.
If you really think minor offenses are causing DCS to break up families the you’re full of ****. You can’t reference some made up anecdote and the dismiss a decade and a half of working in These communities.
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Uhh, but you're the one providing the anecdotes here, remember? I pointed to the number of people actually in jail for drug crimes and also to the federal and state mandatory minimums which may apply to first time offenders. I didn't say anything about DCS breaking up families either.
 
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#668
#668
KB5252 said:
One thing I can tell you from my time in the system is that in a lot of cases drug offenders just want to squash their time. I remember something called drug court that was a diversion program. Some Tim full advantage but many I knew and encountered didn't want to participate because it required them to go through a number of steps...I do not remember what those were. Many preferred to just lay down and finish their time. The point is most of them knew they were just going to go back to doing what they were doing anyway so they knew they would fail.

Here are some things I think would work based on my experience.

Decriminalize marijuana under a quarter pound unless they have a license and work in a legal dispensary etc.

Treatment options for harder more addictive drugs need to be increased.....a lot.

No mandatory sentences for possession level offenses, treatment should be mandatory for the first two offenses. On the third the offender spends 2 weeks in jail and then goes to the third more intensive treatment option. I do think there need to be minimum sentences for trafficking though.

That will not solve most of the problems, despite what everyone may think many criminals are just that. They will always deal and rob because it's easy and do drugs because they don't like who they are. But those who just make mistakes and want to do better will be afforded the opportunity.

Mental health is another issue I saw in my time in the system, you wouldn't believe how many mentally ill people there are in the system who have no business in a facility like those. Not just violent people either though there are many of those too.
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All great ideas and reforms I agree with.

It should be noted that NONE of these are racially biased.
 
#669
#669
Wafflestomper said:
Uhh, but you're the one providing the anecdotes here, remember? I pointed to the number of people actually in jail for drug crimes and also to the federal and state mandatory minimums which may apply to first time offenders. I didn't say anything about DCS breaking up families either.
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You haven’t pointed to anyone. You've made an assertion with no facts and then want me to do your research for you. Get bent.

if someone is in jail for drug crimes it’s NOT because they got popped for simple possession. That is a citation. Mandatory minimums should be done away with. The thing your missing is none of those are targeted by race, but by offense. Your welcome to come to general sessions in my county where 90% of those cases are white trailer trash.
 
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#670
#670
Roustabout said:
You haven’t pointed to anyone. You've made an assertion with no facts and then want me to do your research for you. Get bent.
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So what is the problem with the data I provided? 200,000+ people in jail with drugs being the most serious crime is a fact.

You said over and over that the "system" bends over backwards to keep people out of jail, which is fine. However, I fundamentally disagree with putting people in jail for drugs. Not only does it cost a lot for taxpayers, but it doesn't seem to either rehabilitate drug addicts or dissuade drug use. I also don't think being a junkie or a loser who is statistically more likely to commit some other offense is justifiable grounds for removing a person's freedom.

Roustabout said:
The thing your missing is none of those are targeted by race, but by offense. Your welcome to come to general sessions in my county where 90% of those cases are white trailer trash.
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I didn't say otherwise, although I doubt this statement is universally true.
 
#672
#672
Wafflestomper said:
So what is the problem with the data I provided? 200,000+ people in jail with drugs being the most serious crime is a fact.

You said over and over that the "system" bends over backwards to keep people out of jail, which is fine. However, I fundamentally disagree with putting people in jail for drugs. Not only does it cost a lot for taxpayers, but it doesn't seem to either rehabilitate drug addicts or dissuade drug use. I also don't think being a junkie or a loser who is statistically more likely to commit some other offense is justifiable grounds for removing a person's freedom.



I didn't say otherwise, although I doubt this statement is universally true.
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I don’t disagree. Except that junkies tend to draw attention because they break other laws. I guarantee you there aren’t people doing hard time just for simple possession. They rob and steal and have an unusually high propensity for domestics.
Also, the focus of this is black families. Drugs don’t have special receptors for black people. The drug issue doesn’t discriminate.

Regarding the last statement. I’m referencing that to say that drug related arrests tend to follow lower income, and primarily males. The incidents flow with racial demographics. If BLM and others would focus on treatment they might see a difference. I can tell you who is funding private services for treatment, counseling, parenting, etc in Knoxville. WASPs.

If BLM wants to see change then they should start calling out Democrats who refuse to push prison reform and defunding private prisons. Where’s the legislation?
 
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