Middleton?

[volunteerfan]

The fact is you have no idea how anything might have gone in an alternate universe. He likely would have been required to play in that developmental league you want. If so, he could have just as easily been injured. Only in that case... he wouldn't have been guaranteed a dime or an education. Unless you are claiming WHOLLY apart from reality that he would have signed a $24 million contract straight out of HS. If so... that's even more ridiculous. The NFL would have NO stake in overpaying unproven players any more than they do now.

Again, if an NFL team had believed that Tua was a sure fire future great then they could have drafted him out of HS and developed him within their own system as a scout team player. Nothing. NOTHING prevents that.

You keep acting like life has to be fair. Get over it. Lots of people every day suffer set backs in life and many for reasons much less than this rule. The rule assures that A LOT of kids who dream of playing in the NFL but never become good enough get a great education and a MUCH better chance in life than they otherwise would have. For every Tua out there who may have been harmed by this rule.... there are literally hundreds who benefit from it.

Tua made choices. The NFL had a RIGHT to have that rule. That's "capitalism". That's freedom. Others don't have to lose their freedom because you think it is unfair. Stop whining about how others exercise their freedom and what they do with their businesses.

Maybe if Tua had chosen a different school... he wouldn't have gotten injured. Maybe if he had demanded a RS he wouldn't have gotten injured. Maybe if he had worked a little harder in the weight room he wouldn't have gotten injured.

I think you've demonstrated to a very significant degree that you have no understanding of what the rule is for or capitalism or freedom or personal responsibility for choices or that life is full of risks and is often "unfair". It really doesn't matter why they have the rule though by and large it has to do with supporting college football and developing/evaluating future players.

So? The NBA has a RIGHT to make its own rules. So does the NFL.

And what exactly is wrong with that? Your screen name is "volunteerfan" and you have a problem with the NFL supporting college football?

Again you seem to have no real concept of how capitalism or even basic personal responsibility in financial things works. MOST people take a job understanding the current requirements but also the future prospects. Tua signed with Bama knowing that he would get a free education and likely his best shot at playing in the NFL. That was the offer and he jumped all over it.

The financial benefits they get are worth more than $25K per year. But even if it were $5K per year... it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what two other parties agree to. It isn't up to you to decide if the value of that degree and chance to play professionally is enough. It is up to the kid signing the LOI. Why do you feel compelled to butt into other people's business?

Worst case, he has a degree that will open doors for the rest of his life.


Sure it does. Life's not fair. You seem to have a real problem with that concept. Things frequently don't turn out how you plan or want them to. Sometimes that other course is the right one for you even though it may mean less money or missing out on things you thought you'd love. For all I know, I could be dead now if I had gotten that assignment. For all you know, Tua could have a car accident on his way to sign his contract and never receive a dime.

Bottom line. The Army didn't have to be "fair" with me. It had other mandates and priorities that it deemed more important. The NFL is under no obligation to be "fair" by YOUR terms. They have a RIGHT to support college football if they choose to do so.

By the way, it’s ok if we don’t agree on this

 

[82_VOL_83]

There is no issue here, not with you or anybody. I just don’t agree with your take on this matter. It doesn’t matter how many words you use in your post or how many lines you quote. The bottom line is this, if the ncaa didn’t stand to lose billions then they wouldn’t give a f***. None of the other sports bring in the revenue that football and basketball do so they let the them go straight to the league IF they are good enough. It’s weird that you’re ok with the exploitation of these young men. Did you volunteer for the army knowing you weren’t gonna get paid? Would you have if it was for free? I seriously doubt you would have. I don’t care about fair either. College football is really the only avenue that these kids have as a minor league farm system to show their talents. Please don’t say they can go play arena ball or in the cfl because not many players take that route

Not an NCAA rule. It is an NFL rule. Kids are free to go play where ever they want. The NFL limits their participation. Ergo, your beef is with the NFL, not the NCAA.

 

[82_VOL_83]

There is no issue here, not with you or anybody. I just don’t agree with your take on this matter. It doesn’t matter how many words you use in your post or how many lines you quote. The bottom line is this, if the ncaa didn’t stand to lose billions then they wouldn’t give a f***. None of the other sports bring in the revenue that football and basketball do so they let the them go straight to the league IF they are good enough. It’s weird that you’re ok with the exploitation of these young men. Did you volunteer for the army knowing you weren’t gonna get paid? Would you have if it was for free? I seriously doubt you would have. I don’t care about fair either. College football is really the only avenue that these kids have as a minor league farm system to show their talents. Please don’t say they can go play arena ball or in the cfl because not many players take that route

Non sequitur. Just because they don't go that route doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't.

 

[sjt18]

There is no issue here, not with you or anybody. I just don’t agree with your take on this matter.

You've gone much, much further than that when you compared this situation with an institution where one person owned another and there was nothing the slave could do about it. You went much further when you claimed 100% wrongly that this conflicted with capitalism. And you still act as if it is your right or that of anyone else to make the NFL be "fair".

The bottom line is this, if the ncaa didn’t stand to lose billions then they wouldn’t give a f***.

No. The bottom line is that the NCAA is offering football as a spectator sport that a lot of us appreciate. It costs money to make that happen. The NFL, wisely imo, supports the NCAA to two ends. One, they get developed and somewhat proven players. Two, they support 1000's of other players getting an education that changes their lives, communities, and the trajectory of their family. You for whatever reason are DEMANDING that this be "exploitation". It isn't. It is a system of relationships entered voluntarily by everyone involved.

None of the other sports bring in the revenue that football and basketball do so they let the them go straight to the league IF they are good enough. It’s weird that you’re ok with the exploitation of these young men.

I'm not. It is simply PURE NON-SENSE to call it exploitation. That is a LIE you have believed. They are not forced to sign an LOI. Whether they go pro or not they get a degree ultimately worth millions of dollars in income over their lives.... when the alternative would usually be much less. They get an education of immediate and residual value and VERY often relationships with boosters and fans that result in a GREAT jump start to a lucrative career.

Did you volunteer for the army knowing you weren’t gonna get paid?

These kids don't "volunteer" to sign an LOI on the idea they "won't get paid". A very few will get paid by the NFL. Thousands will have a degree that will get them paid. Your total dismissal of the financial value of a college degree and the relationships these guys have the opportunity to have... is just mind-boggling.

As for me... I got paid $100/month to go through basic training after my sophomore year. I won a scholarship worth my tuition and $100/month during school months. It did not come close to paying my total bill. The benefits I joined for were primarily future.... and it still paid off for me as a Reserve Officer but more importantly on my resume.

So yeah, very similar situation except their total educational costs are covered and then some.

I don’t care about fair either.

Very obviously you do. The kids are being compensated with a free education that many would not get otherwise. You just don't think the future value of that education is "enough".... you think it is unfair. Well, it isn't as long as both parties enter the agreement voluntarily.

College football is really the only avenue that these kids have as a minor league farm system to show their talents.

So if your town had one gas station the owner would somehow be guilty of exploitation simply because there wasn't another? The NFL has a RIGHT to make its own rules. If you really don't like it... start your own league.

Please don’t say they can go play arena ball or in the cfl because not many players take that route

LOL... SO? There is another route when you have claimed there isn't. You are just wrong on this... badly wrong and unfortunately dangerously wrong in that too many agree with you. The changes you seem to have in mind WILL harm college football AND the kids you think would be helped. The vast majority who entered the developmental league wouldn't make it. Then rather than having a degree... they'd go home and at best work some low level job or at worst contribute to worsening our social ills.

These kids get a GREAT opportunity for a free education. If there was NO NFL... that would STILL be a great deal.

 

[sjt18]

Bryce Brown makes a good example of how volunteerfan's argument is WRONG.

He played sparingly in college and sat out for an extended period SPECIFICALLY to preserve his chances at the NFL. With better advice, he could have played in the CFL or Arena league and get paid legally.

 

[wmcovol]

Bryce Brown makes a good example of how volunteerfan's argument is WRONG.

He played sparingly in college and sat out for an extended period SPECIFICALLY to preserve his chances at the NFL. With better advice, he could have played in the CFL or Arena league and get paid legally.

And he played a couple of years at the league minimum, not much of a signing bonus. Now has no money, no education and no future.....despite all around him thinking they were going to get rich off of him. Just another sad story.

 

[rikberry31]

Dexter Manley graduated from Oklahoma State but he was illiterate. True story bro!

Antonio Cromartie as well.

 

[sjt18]

And he played a couple of years at the league minimum, not much of a signing bonus. Now has no money, no education and no future.....despite all around him thinking they were going to get rich off of him. Just another sad story.

One that apparently volunteerfan wants to be repeated over and over... because it is the equivalent of slavery to for the NFL to have a rule supporting college football.

 

[sjt18]

By the way, it’s ok if we don’t agree on this

It is to an extent. When you brought slavery into it and misused capitalism... it became different. When you keep trying to portray the players as poor victims who do not get something of great worth in return for playing college football and NOT going to the NFL... you promote a bad and even harmful idea.

 

[volunteerfan]

It is to an extent. When you brought slavery into it and misused capitalism... it became different. When you keep trying to portray the players as poor victims who do not get something of great worth in return for playing college football and NOT going to the NFL... you promote a bad and even harmful idea.

Yeah the college athletes sign a letter of intent, but what choice do they have? College football holds a monopoly on the avenue to the nfl and there’s no way around that. It’s the nfl’s rule that a kid has to be removed from high school but both the nfl and ncaa benefit from this rule. The nfl doesn’t have to pay a kid to be developed and college football gets to keep being a billion dollar business in return. Do we need to have an economics class on why there are laws against monopolies? Well let’s be real, if being a nfl football player is a young man’s dream then they really don’t have a choice but to play the game for free. I’ll admit that slavery might be too great of a word to describe what college football is, but that doesn’t change the fact that college sports benefit tremendously from free labor, and no matter how much you try to say they are free to do something else or they get paid with their education, it’s still free labor. You can go to college for free for two years in Tennessee now days so that education isn’t worth as much as it used to be. The revenue that these young men bring in to UT could probably pay for every student that is enrolled in the school. Can we at least agree that college football holds the keys to the gate to get into the nfl?

 

[sjt18]

Yeah the college athletes sign a letter of intent, but what choice do they have?

Lots. Since most of them do not go to the NFL, they could join the military. If they have to play football then they can take one of the options mentioned earlier. Or... they can just not play football. They aren't "compelled" to sign a LOI. You keep acting as if they're under some obligation.

College football holds a monopoly on the avenue to the nfl and there’s no way around that.

Except that we've proven it doesn't and you've admitted it doesn't.

It’s the nfl’s rule that a kid has to be removed from high school but both the nfl and ncaa benefit from this rule.

And you have YET to address the fact that the NFL has every right to make their own participation rules. You want different rules? Start your own league. There might even be a market for the kind of developmental league you propose. You could offer them an opportunity to play for Arena League pay... or less... in the hopes of making the NFL without bothering with college. Of course revenues aren't going to come easy.... and you'll screw the majority of those kids over since they can't get paid then get a scholarship... but you could do it.

The nfl doesn’t have to pay a kid to be developed and college football gets to keep being a billion dollar business in return.

And some players get a chance to play in the NFL and ALL get a chance for a college education that has lifelong residual value.

Do we need to have an economics class on why there are laws against monopolies?

From you? LOL. You don't even understand what capitalism is or how it applies here. There have been attempts to form new leagues to compete with the NFL. They have failed or been absorbed. If you think they're in violation of monopoly laws then take them to court. They're a lot less so than Microsoft.

Well let’s be real, if being a nfl football player is a young man’s dream then they really don’t have a choice but to play the game for free.

Or assess the cost/benefit and create another dream. If you want to be a general then you pretty much have one path.

If you want to be a commercial pilot, the federal government requires that you have 1,500 hours of flight time. There are very few routes to get there. If you don't want to join the military... a lot of those routes either pay poorly or not at all. One of my sons is an aviation major. His fees to get around 400 flight hours with his degree will come to around $50k.

You are simply WRONG about this. You are trying to make kids with an incredible privilege into victims or even slaves.

I’ll admit that slavery might be too great of a word to describe what college football is, but that doesn’t change the fact that college sports benefit tremendously from free labor, and no matter how much you try to say they are free to do something else or they get paid with their education, it’s still free labor.

No. It simply isn't. It is an agreed exchange of things of value between two voluntary parties. That IS freedom and the free market. A CLASSIC barter.

You can go to college for free for two years in Tennessee now days so that education isn’t worth as much as it used to be. The revenue that these young men bring in to UT could probably pay for every student that is enrolled in the school.

UT maybe. Many if not most athletic programs hope to break even. Having a program like UT's is a luxury... not a right.

Can we at least agree that college football holds the keys to the gate to get into the nfl?

Of course... and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The NFL has a good rule that results in some guys making it to the NFL and many, many more getting a free education that has residual lifelong value.... not to mention great relationships and opportunities.

That's not a bad deal for these players.

 

[volunteerfan]

Lots. Since most of them do not go to the NFL, they could join the military. If they have to play football then they can take one of the options mentioned earlier. Or... they can just not play football. They aren't "compelled" to sign a LOI. You keep acting as if they're under some obligation.

Except that we've proven it doesn't and you've admitted it doesn't.

And you have YET to address the fact that the NFL has every right to make their own participation rules. You want different rules? Start your own league. There might even be a market for the kind of developmental league you propose. You could offer them an opportunity to play for Arena League pay... or less... in the hopes of making the NFL without bothering with college. Of course revenues aren't going to come easy.... and you'll screw the majority of those kids over since they can't get paid then get a scholarship... but you could do it.

And some players get a chance to play in the NFL and ALL get a chance for a college education that has lifelong residual value.

From you? LOL. You don't even understand what capitalism is or how it applies here. There have been attempts to form new leagues to compete with the NFL. They have failed or been absorbed. If you think they're in violation of monopoly laws then take them to court. They're a lot less so than Microsoft.

Or assess the cost/benefit and create another dream. If you want to be a general then you pretty much have one path.

If you want to be a commercial pilot, the federal government requires that you have 1,500 hours of flight time. There are very few routes to get there. If you don't want to join the military... a lot of those routes either pay poorly or not at all. One of my sons is an aviation major. His fees to get around 400 flight hours with his degree will come to around $50k.

You are simply WRONG about this. You are trying to make kids with an incredible privilege into victims or even slaves.

No. It simply isn't. It is an agreed exchange of things of value between two voluntary parties. That IS freedom and the free market. A CLASSIC barter.

UT maybe. Many if not most athletic programs hope to break even. Having a program like UT's is a luxury... not a right.

Of course... and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The NFL has a good rule that results in some guys making it to the NFL and many, many more getting a free education that has residual lifelong value.... not to mention great relationships and opportunities.

That's not a bad deal for these players.

If a player is ready to play nfl football then they should be able to go. And yes, it is a proven fact that college football holds a monopoly over all minor league football and it’s because of one reason and one reason only, free labor.

 

[JohnWardForever]

Junior College...JuCo.

It is like a wonderful second chance for athletes who were just passed along in high school.

JuCo provides food, shelter, and a structured life. They have tutors to help get the grades up. They offer courses on how to take the standardized tests.

JuCO works for some guys such that they can qualify for a 4-year school. Many don't make it.

Even if you pass that cut, as discussed previously, life at a big school is difficult.

Larry Bird lasted less than 30 days at the University of Indiana. He hitchhiked home and went to work on a garbage truck. Larry didn't like the big campus life.

Sorry you didn't recognize the Sarcasm. I know the drill.

 

[Jax_Vol]

Sorry you didn't recognize the Sarcasm. I know the drill.

Whoops, you have to use the blue font with me. On VN, hard to tell edgy from slow.

 

[bluetick2]

Pound for pound he was the best imo...

Not close. He wasnt even better tham Pac man P4P

 

[LittleVol]

Not close. He wasnt even better tham Pac man P4P

PacMan iss #2 imo.
And my favorite boxer ever...but Mayweather schooled him.

 

[vols40]

PacMan iss #2 imo.
And my favorite boxer ever...but Mayweather schooled him.

7 years after Floyd ducked him with his last minute claims of unlimited testing.

 

[FLVOL_79]

There is no issue here, not with you or anybody. I just don’t agree with your take on this matter. It doesn’t matter how many words you use in your post or how many lines you quote. The bottom line is this, if the ncaa didn’t stand to lose billions then they wouldn’t give a f***. None of the other sports bring in the revenue that football and basketball do so they let the them go straight to the league IF they are good enough. It’s weird that you’re ok with the exploitation of these young men. Did you volunteer for the army knowing you weren’t gonna get paid? Would you have if it was for free? I seriously doubt you would have. I don’t care about fair either. College football is really the only avenue that these kids have as a minor league farm system to show their talents. Please don’t say they can go play arena ball or in the cfl because not many players take that route

They dont have to go to college to play in the NFL..

 

[LittleVol]

7 years after Floyd ducked him with his last minute claims of unlimited testing.

PacMan is still winning at 41 years old. That fight was over 4 years ago...

Had they fought in 2008-10 it would have beem same result. Great defensive counter puncher vs overaggresve offense. Its a bad matchup for Pac Man. Always was..

Again. Pac Man is my favorite boxer and one of my favorite people period. My wife idolizes him haha. But Mayweather is head and shoulders better.

 

[vols40]

PacMan is still winning at 41 years old. That fight was over 4 years ago...

Had they fought in 2008-10 it would have beem same result. Great defensive counter puncher vs overaggresve offense. Its a bad matchup for Pac Man. Always was..

Again. Pac Man is my favorite boxer and one of my favorite people period. My wife idolizes him haha. But Mayweather is head and shoulders better.

Agree to disagree. The fight in 15 was a joke.

 

[preacherwebb]

Sooooooo ..... any word if Middleton is playing in the bowl?

 

[chrismc1000]

Man all I'm saying is it took me three years to get my two year degree and I'm making pretty good money as a maintenance tech so no excuses. Never mind the fact all I did was drink beer and play call of duty my first year lol

 

[chrismc1000]

If a player is ready to play nfl football then they should be able to go. And yes, it is a proven fact that college football holds a monopoly over all minor league football and it’s because of one reason and one reason only, free labor.

So what about all the walk ons that are currently in the NFL? You do know you can try out for their practice squad or go to arena football and then possibly get drafted or play in the Canadian league as well. There are multiple ways to get into the NFL bottom line is that you simply have to be good enough to get into it.

 

[chrismc1000]

Also having a monopoly means everyone is buying or using your product and their is no competition. That being said the college football doesn't have a monopoly for entry into the NFL

 

[TN_Transplant]

Pound for pound he was the best imo...

Sorry, I'd take Sugar Ray in his prime before Floyd. Marciano, Joe Louis, Ali...

There have been some scary good boxers to say Floyd is the best all time pound for pound.