Loyalty

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yeah, loyalty. I've seen some of you guys make comments about players that may/may not be back next year if this coach leaves or that one leaves. Most of what I've seen amounts to, "if they don't want to wear the orange and white because a coach leaves, then they can pack their bags, also".

Paraphrasing...

Well, on the one hand, you have coaches that are in their late 30's and older, signing contracts that range from a quarter million dollars to $5 million dollars leaving teams in the NFL and NCAA at an epidemic pace recently. Heck, on our own staff in Knoxville, we had a coach that openly said that he would leave the moment a coaching opportunity was available (Cutcliffe). Seems like there is no standard for loyalty or litmus test that coaches have to pass in order to maintain loyalty. Is Cutcliffe any less of a Vol coach because he chooses to go to Duke, even though he didn't have his heart on being a longtime presence here in Knoxville?

Then on the other hand, you have the 18 year old high school student. The kid that is being recruited by these mid 30 and older coaches and being made promises to. These elders befriend the kids and influence them to come to the school they represent. And if they pick that school, the 18 year old receives a year-to-year scholarship that covers tuition, books, and board, and that 18 year old is expected to serve out the terms of that one year scholarship. If he chooses to leave for whatever reason, he is penalized a year of eligibility (2 years if within conference or not granted a release by the elder coach).

So in essence, an 18 year old that will be making one of the first major decisions in his life is held and bound to the terms of his agreement while a mature and allegedly more noble figure such as a football coach is not held or bound to restrictions in where they are allowed to go. How many of you would honestly say that you would be happy with living with a decision or judgement you made at 19-21 years old? Not many of you. Yet, we expect kids on a measely scholarship to be honorable to a contract and loyal to a school when we don't demand the same of a coach that is compensated 20 times as much as the price of a years tuition and can leverage/campaign for other jobs around the country.

Yeah... go after the kids for not being loyal to the orange and white (or whatever college you support) while you have coaches on staff that have ambitions of moving on to greener pastures.


:ermm:

 

[volsforever27]

Yeah, loyalty. I've seen some of you guys make comments about players that may/may not be back next year if this coach leaves or that one leaves. Most of what I've seen amounts to, "if they don't want to wear the orange and white because a coach leaves, then they can pack their bags, also".

Paraphrasing...

Well, on the one hand, you have coaches that are in their late 30's and older, signing contracts that range from a quarter million dollars to $5 million dollars leaving teams in the NFL and NCAA at an epidemic pace recently. Heck, on our own staff in Knoxville, we had a coach that openly said that he would leave the moment a coaching opportunity was available (Cutcliffe). Seems like there is no standard for loyalty or litmus test that coaches have to pass in order to maintain loyalty. Is Cutcliffe any less of a Vol coach because he chooses to go to Duke, even though he didn't have his heart on being a longtime presence here in Knoxville?

Then on the other hand, you have the 18 year old high school student. The kid that is being recruited by these mid 30 and older coaches and being made promises to. These elders befriend the kids and influence them to come to the school they represent. And if they pick that school, the 18 year old receives a year-to-year scholarship that covers tuition, books, and board, and that 18 year old is expected to serve out the terms of that one year scholarship. If he chooses to leave for whatever reason, he is penalized a year of eligibility (2 years if within conference or not granted a release by the elder coach).

So in essence, an 18 year old that will be making one of the first major decisions in his life is held and bound to the terms of his agreement while a mature and allegedly more noble figure such as a football coach is not held or bound to restrictions in where they are allowed to go. How many of you would honestly say that you would be happy with living with a decision or judgement you made at 19-21 years old? Not many of you. Yet, we expect kids on a measely scholarship to be honorable to a contract and loyal to a school when we don't demand the same of a coach that is compensated 20 times as much as the price of a years tuition and can leverage/campaign for other jobs around the country.

Yeah... go after the kids for not being loyal to the orange and white (or whatever college you support) while you have coaches on staff that have ambitions of moving on to greener pastures.


:ermm:

There is no loyalty anymore amongst coaches or players... how can you expect some kid from NJ to be loyal to a team from the south? The only players that are "loyal" would probably be the one that grew up watching UT. That being said, if you care about loyalty too much, you wind up like Fulmer and only promoting in house. Seems to me that's kind of getting stale. I want loyalty, but I also want results.

 

[JustFunnN'Orange]

Ras' I've read your post here for the time I've been a member. My first thoughts are...you're an arrogant a$$...but, you seem knowlegable and your facts are in order.
I must applaude you for this post...it's one of your finer thoughts/statements about the state of....not just UT/College Football but, our society in general. A decade ago "Loyalty" would have had more meaning. More impact on the persona of the players, coaches etc.
Today, unfortunately, it's about the money!!

Well played Mad Monk!!

 

[kptvol]

Yeah... go after the kids for not being loyal to the orange and white (or whatever college you support) while you have coaches on staff that have ambitions of moving on to greener pastures.


:ermm:

Hire an ambitious coach or hire a bad coach. Those are pretty much your options. And as for the rest of your post, I don't think there is a double standard. No one is praising the character of Trooper and Cutcliffe. As for the kids, loyalty aside, it's too early for them to be talking about this. The bowl game is still on the horizon. The new coordinator isn't going to be named until after that time. There's no reason to flip out and talk about transfering this early in the game.

 

[Sudden Impact]

There is no loyalty anymore amongst coaches or players... how can you expect some kid from NJ to be loyal to a team from the south? The only players that are "loyal" would probably be the one that grew up watching UT. That being said, if you care about loyalty too much, you wind up like Fulmer and only promoting in house. Seems to me that's kind of getting stale. I want loyalty, but I also want results.

That is part of the program. That all coaches must instill into these minds of these Kids... It often proves to be the difference in a win or a lost. It is the intangible of team dynamics...

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

There is no loyalty anymore amongst coaches or players... how can you expect some kid from NJ to be loyal to a team from the south? The only players that are "loyal" would probably be the one that grew up watching UT. That being said, if you care about loyalty too much, you wind up like Fulmer and only promoting in house. Seems to me that's kind of getting stale. I want loyalty, but I also want results.

I saw a "rumor" posted over the past few days about Coleman possibly transfering to Duke since Cutcliffe left. From everything I've heard, Coleman is Tennessee orange through and through. But how can anyone blame him if he did hypothetically choose to follow Cutty? How can you blame a kid like Pryor who considers Tennessee not because of his childhood love for the Big orange, but because of the reputation of a postition coach of placing QB's in the NFL? If the motivating factor for that kid signing or considiering a school is no longer in play, how can anyone reasonable turn around and have sour grapes and say, "well, if Pryor or Player X doesn't want to wear the orange that I have grown up loving, then I don't want him anyway..." Paraphrasing...

Yeah, you spit on a kid for rejecting your school because the situations change or other opportunites arise, yet a coach (Cutcliffe) who everyone knew had no intention of being here for the long term or being loyal to the orange and white, can scat on to Duke with no problem. I've seen plenty of criticism of Trooper on the boards for allegedly leveraging the kids against Fulmer because these kids have a strong personal relationship with their coach. But Fulmer had no problem with Trooper recruiting these very same kids based solely on his ability to build relationships with these players and convince them to sign with Tennessee. It's a double edge sword. The relationships that his coaches needed to build in order to bring kids here can also be used against you when those coaches leave.

Like I've said, I've seen plenty of criticism aimed at Trooper and some of the kids that he recruited, but I have seen nearly as much directed at Cutcliffe and Fulmer for being just as equally culpable for what we have now.

 

[Sudden Impact]

I saw a "rumor" posted over the past few days about Coleman possibly transfering to Duke since Cutcliffe left. From everything I've heard, Coleman is Tennessee orange through and through. But how can anyone blame him if he did hypothetically choose to follow Cutty? How can you blame a kid like Pryor who considers Tennessee not because of his childhood love for the Big ornage, but because of the reputation of a postition coach of placing QB's in the NFL? If the motivating factor for that kid signing or considiering a school is no longer in play, how can anyone reasonable turn around and have sour grapes and say, "well, if Pryor or Player X doesn't want to wear the orange that I have grown up loving, then I don't want him anyway..." Paraphrasing...

QUOTE]

The sad part of this is who has Cut put into the Pro's besides the Manning Brothers and Shuler...The Mannings were going to make it no matter who coached them...

 

[RoanokeVol]

Coaches are grown adults who are doing this as a profession. They need to pick up and leave if they feel there is a better opportunity to provide for their family elsewhere, much like I would change jobs when a better opportunity comes about. Student athletes are, for the most part, at school for an education. I say that because very few of these athletes will be making their profession as an athlete after school. Furthermore, you can look at the news and see that many of these kids can not make good choices. Could you imagine how big of a cluster f^*k college football would be if these kids could transfer from school to school with no penalty? You would have kids transferring all over the place all the time.

 

[volbreaker]

Well done, Ras.....be careful or they will be trying to feed you tea cakes, wrap you in a rug and slip you under the ice

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Coaches are grown adults who are doing this as a profession. They need to pick up and leave if they feel there is a better opportunity to provide for their family elsewhere, much like I would change jobs when a better opportunity comes about. Student athletes are, for the most part, at school for an education. I say that because very few of these athletes will be making their profession as an athlete after school. Furthermore, you can look at the news and see that many of these kids can not make good choices. Could you imagine how big of a cluster f^*k college football would be if these kids could transfer from school to school with no penalty? You would have kids transferring all over the place all the time.

And having coaches leaving jobs all over the place is of no concern to you?

Double standard. And frankly, I don't understand how you can defend holding an 18 year old accountable for signing a contract, yet allow coaches to leave for greener pastures to support their families, while the kids they recruited are left holding the bag. If you are gonna penalize kids for not living up to their agreements or criticize them for not being loyal to your university, then you need to have rules in place that penalize coaches for luring kids to a school when they have ambitions/intentions of going to a more lucrative job.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Coaches are grown adults who are doing this as a profession. They need to pick up and leave if they feel there is a better opportunity to provide for their family elsewhere, much like I would change jobs when a better opportunity comes about. Student athletes are, for the most part, at school for an education. I say that because very few of these athletes will be making their profession as an athlete after school. Furthermore, you can look at the news and see that many of these kids can not make good choices. Could you imagine how big of a cluster f^*k college football would be if these kids could transfer from school to school with no penalty? You would have kids transferring all over the place all the time.

These poor, poor coaches, just scraping by on a quarter million a year (or more in the case of head coaches). If an opportunity presents itself that is better for a millionaire coach, that is ok. But if a better opportunity for a kid on a scholarship opens up, he have to hold that 18 year old accountable to the terms of his agreement or else he suffers stiff punishment. :dunno:

 

[RoanokeVol]

And having coaches leaving jobs all over the place is of no concern to you?

Double standard. And frankly, I don't understand how you can defend holding an 18 year old accountable for signing a contract, yet allow coaches to leave for greener pastures to support their families, while the kids they recruited are left holding the bag. If you are gonna penalize kids for not living up to their agreements or criticize them for not being loyal to your university, then you need to have rules in place that penalize coaches for luring kids to a school when they have ambitions/intentions of going to a more lucrative job.

Coaches are penalized. If they are still under contract, they have a buyout. Here is the bottom line. How many coaches are on a squad. Now determine how many players are on a squad. Now multiply that by the 100 plus division 1-A teams. There are few enough coaches to where if a handful pick up and move, it will be ok. Now think about how many players there are, who if they get there panties in a wad about playing time, or coach yelled at them, they could leave one season and start playing the next year for another squad. The grass is always greener when you have no roots at the university or the surrounding area. You would have guys moving all over the place and the system would end up imploding.

 

[RoanokeVol]

These poor, poor coaches, just scraping by on a quarter million a year (or more in the case of head coaches). If an opportunity presents itself that is better for a millionaire coach, that is ok. But if a better opportunity for a kid on a scholarship opens up, he have to hold that 18 year old accountable to the terms of his agreement or else he suffers stiff punishment. :dunno:

If I was making a quarter of a million, I would still want to find a way to make more money. Wouldn't you? I don't care where I am in my position or salary scale, I would never want to get complacent and say what I am doing now is enough. Is that what you do?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Coaches are penalized. If they are still under contract, they have a buyout.

Yeah... coaches are really penalized with that buyout. :ermm:

 

[RoanokeVol]

If we want them to be stoned or beaten with a rubber hose, that needs to be in the contract. Unfortunately for your argument, there is only a buyout in the contract. And the "buyout" for an athlete is sitting out a year. Just the way it is.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If I was making a quarter of a million, I would still want to find a way to make more money. Wouldn't you? I don't care where I am in my position or salary scale, I would never want to get complacent and say what I am doing now is enough. Is that what you do?

The main issue isn't about whether people should be able to improve their lives or earning power. It's the American way.

It is about holding an 18 year old kid to his signature while middle aged guys are not expected to show the same loyalty and honor their agreements. :ermm:

 

[RoanokeVol]

The main issue isn't about whether people should be able to improve their lives or earning power. It's the American way.

It is about holding an 18 year old kid to his signature while middle aged guys are not expected to show the same loyalty and honor their agreements. :ermm:

Fair enough. So I am curious as to how we correct this. Are you suggesting we let athletes move at will with no penalty, or should coaches have to sit out a year. You have obviously put a problem out there, so let's try to find a solution.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If we want them to be stoned or beaten with a rubber hose, that needs to be in the contract. Unfortunately for your argument, there is only a buyout in the contract. And the "buyout" for an athlete is sitting out a year. Just the way it is.

nvm... :no:

 

[volbreaker]

If I was making a quarter of a million, I would still want to find a way to make more money. Wouldn't you? I don't care where I am in my position or salary scale, I would never want to get complacent and say what I am doing now is enough. Is that what you do?

True...how true...a gas will always expand to fill it's container. I have a substantially less "expendable income" than I did when I was younger and responsibility free...even though I make much more

 

[volbreaker]

If I was making a quarter of a million, I would still want to find a way to make more money. Wouldn't you? I don't care where I am in my position or salary scale, I would never want to get complacent and say what I am doing now is enough. Is that what you do?

....now you are hitting on my fun zone. i want my sales guys to have BIG overheads 'cuz they respond accordingly (or, find that they need to find something else to meet their needs). Never consider someone rich by judging their salary. You are "right on" with this post.

 

[volbreaker]

The main issue isn't about whether people should be able to improve their lives or earning power. It's the American way.

It is about holding an 18 year old kid to his signature while middle aged guys are not expected to show the same loyalty and honor their agreements. :ermm:

...yep, you are "point-on" mister Ras

 

[Ohio Vol]

A wise man once said that he'd rather have young ambitious coaches on his staff than those who didn't aspire to advance. The idea was that they would be the ones to put everything they had into doing the job right and doing it well, while those without the ambition would accept simply existing.

As a coach, the mercenary nature of some irritates the crap out of me. Petrino couldn't go a single year without courting someone else; if it was to get more money or to actually look for a new job is beside the point. Seriously, have some sense of honor.

I've been around the MAC for most of my life and can't help but think how immensely successful some of those schools could be if they could have a top-level coach who would just be willing to stay. Could Bowling Green have been a national contender if Urban Meyer had stayed? Could any of these schools be ranked nationally on a yearly basis if there was continuity?

 

[Business]

Let em' go. Coaches and players.

Since I've been a fan of Tennessee there have been hundreds if not thousands of players through there. Not as many coaches but they have come and gone, all except maybe Fulmer and Chavis.

I'm not going to lose any sleep if Trooper goes to the Big 12, and Arian Foster gets selected in the 6th round.

 

[volbreaker]

The trooper crap is rumor and he is STILL the WR coach at UT. Dissing on a current player with a year of eligibility left sucks.

 

[Business]

The trooper crap is rumor and he is STILL the WR coach at UT. Dissing on a current player with a year of eligibility left sucks.

Not dissing, just saying if he wants to leave and get selected late instead of staying another year and upping his draft status that's fine.

We're going to be breaking in a new QB next year so conventional and logical thinking would indicate that Foster will be the workhorse of the team, which he was this year and many think he should have been even more so, including me. Add to that, barring injury, he will break the rushing record at UT.

All I'm saying is they're all grown men. They can do what they want. Tennessee got 100,000 plus in the seats before them and will get 100,000 in the seats after they leave, if they leave.

The way some people on here are talking if Trooper and some players leave Tennessee is going to pull an ETSU and pack up the football program.