Let's Talk About Sin

#653
#653
MercyPercy said:
I guess I don't blame you. As I explained in said post, many religious people find any confrontation of their beliefs as a personal attack and turn a blind eye at all costs.
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I honestly didn't read it because I thought it was another troll attack based on your previous posts. That combinded with ADHD only allows me to read about 3 sentences. The post I quoted was almost too long.

I'm willing to bet you said something about it being a crutch though.
 
#655
#655
orangeslice13 said:
I honestly didn't read it because I thought it was another troll attack based on your previous posts. That combinded with ADHD only allows me to read about 3 sentences. The post I quoted was almost too long.

I'm willing to bet you said something about it being a crutch though.
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Didn't use the word crutch once. :)
 
#656
#656
MercyPercy said:
Actually, this brings up a good point about why I do continue to harass you good god fearing folk. The truth is, I'm intensely fascinated by the religious condition. The idea that so many people will disregard reality and put their faith in fiction really does fascinate me to no end. Of course, I have my own theories on what drives people towards religious belief.

1.) Indoctrination. You love your momma and daddy with all your heart, and think the world of them. The thought that they could have been wrong about god and lying to you as a child is unfathomable. You put your unwavering trust in them and the church they brought you to. This also involves peer pressure, as one would be less inclined to dissent when their entire community operates in faith. To publicly disagree with aspects of your faith in a faith centered community is a frightening prospect to many.

And yet, many people who went through the process of indoctrination come to their senses and leave the church. So, simple indoctrination cannot explain the attraction in total.

2.) Lack of education. The less one knows about science and the natural world they live in, the easier it is to dismiss their superiors and continue to surround themselves in a veil of ignorance. It's no surprise that the more educated and those with higher IQs are less religious. When one furthers their education, their understanding about the process of evolution, carbon dating, and other areas of science will often lead them to question their religious beliefs, as they are often not compatible with their new-found understanding.

And yet, I know people with no college education who left their beliefs behind. Obviously, further education is not the only thing that frees the mind from its religious restraints.

3.) Pride. For someone who spent their entire life believing in a deity, to have contradicting views threatening their way of life is immensely offensive. Not only is it offensive, but scary, because if these opposing views are correct, you would have to admit to yourself that you've been massively duped. Not just scammed by some online identity thief. You've been scammed to the very core of your being, and you've been on your knees worshiping something that doesn't exist. For someone with a large amount of pride, it must be nearly impossible to even consider the consequences of being wrong about this.

And yet, I still see prideful people who left the church later in life. So pride is not the linchpin of belief.

4.) Fear. This, in my humble opinion, is the strongest force in maintaining one's faith. There are two specific, yet intertwined fears. I think there is a certain type of person with a typecast mentality that these fears really effect. The first fear is the fear of nothing after death. The idea that we simply rot in the ground after we die is so scary to people who strive for meaning in their lives that they rationalize an afterlife. Once this fabrication is maintained, they can operate with much greater peace of mind. The second fear is the fear of hell, which inspires them to go to church, tithe, etc. While many would spin it another way, I'm particularly convinced that this fear is inherently selfish. They participate in their own Pascal's Wager, believing it's better to be safe than sorry. So instead of doing good things or being kind out of their own prerogative, they do it to secure their place in heaven and avoid the the punishment of hell. The people with this mentality, the overwhelming fear of death, are the ones who flock to god the most.

And that is why I believe fear is the greatest determining factor of many people of faith, though the first three things I also talked about certainly play a part as well.


I'm gonna get bashed for this post, but I wouldn't expect any less considering the majority of this forum is populated by believers. I'm not going to lie and say that I tried to put things as delicately as I could, or attempted to mitigate any patronizing that occurred. I'm just a person trying to understand a certain mindset belonging to a certain type of person. Peace. :hi:
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Although those might be side factors, I think it really boils down to a two prong system of judgment; either revelation or some form of Pascal's wager. I am not swayed by Pascal's wager, thus I am waiting on revelation.
 
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#658
#658
PKT_VOL said:
Although those might be side factors, I think it really boils down to a two prong system of judgment; either revelation or some form of Pascal's wager. I am not swayed by Pascal's wager, thus I am waiting on revelation.
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To me it all comes down to revelation.

I know God is there.
I believe we've discussed that in private. I don't expect those who haven't been there to understand. I only hope that all get there but I know some won't. to spite the way I act on here that makes me sad
 
#659
#659
orangeslice13 said:
To me it all comes down to revelation.

I know God is there.
I believe we've discussed that in private. I don't expect those who haven't been there to understand. I only hope that all get there but I know some won't. to spite the way I act on here that makes me sad
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We have and I agree. In saying that, I don't necessarily believe the various people who claim revelation actually received true revelation. All that matters is that from their point of view it was revelation which fosters a legitimate reason for their belief (to an extent anyways).
 
#661
#661
MercyPercy said:
Actually, this brings up a good point about why I do continue to harass you good god fearing folk. The truth is, I'm intensely fascinated by the religious condition. The idea that so many people will disregard reality and put their faith in fiction really does fascinate me to no end. Of course, I have my own theories on what drives people towards religious belief.

1.) Indoctrination. You love your momma and daddy with all your heart, and think the world of them. The thought that they could have been wrong about god and lying to you as a child is unfathomable. You put your unwavering trust in them and the church they brought you to. This also involves peer pressure, as one would be less inclined to dissent when their entire community operates in faith. To publicly disagree with aspects of your faith in a faith centered community is a frightening prospect to many.

And yet, many people who went through the process of indoctrination come to their senses and leave the church. So, simple indoctrination cannot explain the attraction in total.

2.) Lack of education. The less one knows about science and the natural world they live in, the easier it is to dismiss their superiors and continue to surround themselves in a veil of ignorance. It's no surprise that the more educated and those with higher IQs are less religious. When one furthers their education, their understanding about the process of evolution, carbon dating, and other areas of science will often lead them to question their religious beliefs, as they are often not compatible with their new-found understanding.

And yet, I know people with no college education who left their beliefs behind. Obviously, further education is not the only thing that frees the mind from its religious restraints.

3.) Pride. For someone who spent their entire life believing in a deity, to have contradicting views threatening their way of life is immensely offensive. Not only is it offensive, but scary, because if these opposing views are correct, you would have to admit to yourself that you've been massively duped. Not just scammed by some online identity thief. You've been scammed to the very core of your being, and you've been on your knees worshiping something that doesn't exist. For someone with a large amount of pride, it must be nearly impossible to even consider the consequences of being wrong about this.

And yet, I still see prideful people who left the church later in life. So pride is not the linchpin of belief.

4.) Fear. This, in my humble opinion, is the strongest force in maintaining one's faith. There are two specific, yet intertwined fears. I think there is a certain type of person with a typecast mentality that these fears really effect. The first fear is the fear of nothing after death. The idea that we simply rot in the ground after we die is so scary to people who strive for meaning in their lives that they rationalize an afterlife. Once this fabrication is maintained, they can operate with much greater peace of mind. The second fear is the fear of hell, which inspires them to go to church, tithe, etc. While many would spin it another way, I'm particularly convinced that this fear is inherently selfish. They participate in their own Pascal's Wager, believing it's better to be safe than sorry. So instead of doing good things or being kind out of their own prerogative, they do it to secure their place in heaven and avoid the the punishment of hell. The people with this mentality, the overwhelming fear of death, are the ones who flock to god the most.

And that is why I believe fear is the greatest determining factor of many people of faith, though the first three things I also talked about certainly play a part as well.


I'm gonna get bashed for this post, but I wouldn't expect any less considering the majority of this forum is populated by believers. I'm not going to lie and say that I tried to put things as delicately as I could, or attempted to mitigate any patronizing that occurred. I'm just a person trying to understand a certain mindset belonging to a certain type of person. Peace. :hi:
Click to expand...

What would be the benefit in bashing you? By typing this nonsense you have effectively showed your ignorance. No need to add to it. Would you like to know what makes your posts dumb? You continually commit logical fallacies and you don't even realize it.

You said many have left the church? What constitutes many? Have you done a study that has been peer reviewed? You have no idea how many people have left the church because of indoctrination. Also for everyone that leaves how many have come to God after a life of sin? Impossible to know. Please stop making idiotic claims.

Talking about education and you show your ignorance yet again. Some of the most intelligent men in history ave been religious. Science has only helped to strengthen my belief in God throughout the years. The more we understand about the laws that govern the universe and how precise things have to be for life to exist, the more evidence for God shows up. IQ is one of the poorest measures of intelligence. I can see why you would use that analogy. There are also instances of scientists, even atheists like Dr. Francis Collins who have converted to Christianity. So how do we know that the same number of those educated people don't stick with their religious beliefs? We don't. More outrageous claims made by you. This site will help you out 100 Scientists Who Shaped World History

Atheists get angry and downright obnoxious when people question their beliefs, so I guess you are prideful as well? for those who do convert to atheism what you say is true. However considering that 84% of the world is religious and adheres to some type of faith, your beliefs are in the vast minority. Also I forgot to mention in the previous paragraph that atheism is rising in the United States. Kids and young people are getting dumber. My brother is a Sociology professor and he brought this to my attention. He read a study that shows a correlation between atheism and overall intelligence.

Fear is a great motivator and it probably does play a part in some peoples relationship with God. I certainly do not want to go to Hell. But that has nothing to do with my faith. I have seen God perform miracles in my life and in my job. In the medical field I have seen miracles that would possibly convert many atheists. As far as rotting in the ground and no reward/punishment in the afterlife, then whats life's purpose? Why are we humans here? If there is no God and we evolved to what we are now then whats the point? Did nature just decide one day that it will create humans? Sorry but that makes no sense. Nature just created all of the life we have on this planet because it was just bored?
 
#662
#662
BigOrangeTrain said:
What would be the benefit in bashing you? By typing this nonsense you have effectively showed your ignorance. No need to add to it. Would you like to know what makes your posts dumb? You continually commit logical fallacies and you don't even realize it.

You said many have left the church? What constitutes many? Have you done a study that has been peer reviewed? You have no idea how many people have left the church because of indoctrination. Also for everyone that leaves how many have come to God after a life of sin? Impossible to know. Please stop making idiotic claims.

Talking about education and you show your ignorance yet again. Some of the most intelligent men in history ave been religious. Science has only helped to strengthen my belief in God throughout the years. The more we understand about the laws that govern the universe and how precise things have to be for life to exist, the more evidence for God shows up. IQ is one of the poorest measures of intelligence. I can see why you would use that analogy. There are also instances of scientists, even atheists like Dr. Francis Collins who have converted to Christianity. So how do we know that the same number of those educated people don't stick with their religious beliefs? We don't. More outrageous claims made by you. This site will help you out 100 Scientists Who Shaped World History

Atheists get angry and downright obnoxious when people question their beliefs, so I guess you are prideful as well? for those who do convert to atheism what you say is true. However considering that 84% of the world is religious and adheres to some type of faith, your beliefs are in the vast minority. Also I forgot to mention in the previous paragraph that atheism is rising in the United States. Kids and young people are getting dumber. My brother is a Sociology professor and he brought this to my attention. He read a study that shows a correlation between atheism and overall intelligence.

Fear is a great motivator and it probably does play a part in some peoples relationship with God. I certainly do not want to go to Hell. But that has nothing to do with my faith. I have seen God perform miracles in my life and in my job. In the medical field I have seen miracles that would possibly convert many atheists. As far as rotting in the ground and no reward/punishment in the afterlife, then whats life's purpose? Why are we humans here? If there is no God and we evolved to what we are now then whats the point? Did nature just decide one day that it will create humans? Sorry but that makes no sense. Nature just created all of the life we have on this planet because it was just bored?
Click to expand...

1.) Show me the study that correlates atheism and intelligence(negatively). Hint, you can't because it doesn't exist.

2.) Please state the miracles you have experienced.

3.) One does not "convert" to atheism. Atheism is not a religion.

4). Your simplistic view of "did nature just decide one day to create humans" exposes your ignorance even further.

The rest of your post was nonsense. Next?
 
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#663
#663
BigOrangeTrain said:
What would be the benefit in bashing you? By typing this nonsense you have effectively showed your ignorance. No need to add to it. Would you like to know what makes your posts dumb? You continually commit logical fallacies and you don't even realize it.

You said many have left the church? What constitutes many? Have you done a study that has been peer reviewed? You have no idea how many people have left the church because of indoctrination. Also for everyone that leaves how many have come to God after a life of sin? Impossible to know. Please stop making idiotic claims.

Talking about education and you show your ignorance yet again. Some of the most intelligent men in history ave been religious. Science has only helped to strengthen my belief in God throughout the years. The more we understand about the laws that govern the universe and how precise things have to be for life to exist, the more evidence for God shows up. IQ is one of the poorest measures of intelligence. I can see why you would use that analogy. There are also instances of scientists, even atheists like Dr. Francis Collins who have converted to Christianity. So how do we know that the same number of those educated people don't stick with their religious beliefs? We don't. More outrageous claims made by you. This site will help you out 100 Scientists Who Shaped World History

Atheists get angry and downright obnoxious when people question their beliefs, so I guess you are prideful as well? for those who do convert to atheism what you say is true. However considering that 84% of the world is religious and adheres to some type of faith, your beliefs are in the vast minority. Also I forgot to mention in the previous paragraph that atheism is rising in the United States. Kids and young people are getting dumber. My brother is a Sociology professor and he brought this to my attention. He read a study that shows a correlation between atheism and overall intelligence.

Fear is a great motivator and it probably does play a part in some peoples relationship with God. I certainly do not want to go to Hell. But that has nothing to do with my faith. I have seen God perform miracles in my life and in my job. In the medical field I have seen miracles that would possibly convert many atheists. As far as rotting in the ground and no reward/punishment in the afterlife, then whats life's purpose? Why are we humans here? If there is no God and we evolved to what we are now then whats the point? Did nature just decide one day that it will create humans? Sorry but that makes no sense. Nature just created all of the life we have on this planet because it was just bored?
Click to expand...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0[/youtube]
 
#666
#666
Septic said:
Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines
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That sure is scary...

...unless the Bible predicted it would happen as the end approached.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 -- Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (the day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy (falling away) comes first…


Jesus said in Matthew 24:10 (describing the signs of the end) -- Many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another...
 
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#667
#667
Orange_Crush said:
That sure is scary...

...unless the Bible predicted it would happen as the end approached.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 -- Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (the day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy (falling away) comes first…


Jesus said in Matthew 24:10 (describing the signs of the end) -- Many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another...
Click to expand...

People have been claiming the end of days is coming real soon for quite some time now. There's always some sign or another. Whatcha got for us, Pat Robertson?

I need to know when to wear my Sunday best.
 
#668
#668
Orange_Crush said:
That sure is scary...

...unless the Bible predicted it would happen as the end approached.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 -- Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (the day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy (falling away) comes first…


Jesus said in Matthew 24:10 (describing the signs of the end) -- Many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another...
Click to expand...

Good post (youve made several in this thread and the newest evolution one). What are some of your thoughts on the prophecies about an increase in false prophets and false teachers in the end times? In other words, does the increase in false teaching cause the falling away?
 
#669
#669
MercyPercy said:
People have been claiming the end of days is coming real soon for quite some time now. There's always some sign or another. Whatcha got for us, Pat Robertson?

I need to know when to wear my Sunday best.
Click to expand...

2 Peter 3:4.


And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Boom!!! Fufilled by you
 
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#670
#670
mtt2d said:
Good post (youve made several in this thread and the newest evolution one). What are some of your thoughts on the prophecies about an increase in false prophets and false teachers in the end times? In other words, does the increase in false teaching cause the falling away?
Click to expand...

This could be fun.
 
#671
#671
orangeslice13 said:
2 Peter 3:4.


And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Boom!!! Fufilled by you
Click to expand...

Unsure-Larry-David.gif
 
#672
#672
mtt2d said:
Good post (youve made several in this thread and the newest evolution one). What are some of your thoughts on the prophecies about an increase in false prophets and false teachers in the end times? In other words, does the increase in false teaching cause the falling away?
Click to expand...

I think it does, and not just within the church. Remember, when the disciples asked Jesus for the signs of the end times, Jesus' first words were, "Be ye not deceived..." I do think we are seeing an increase in false teachers within the church today.

I detest the "prosperity gospel" being taught today. It's not scriptural. It sets people up for ruined expectations. Jesus said to expect suffering. When you claim that Christianity is the fix for what ails you, people become disheartened and leave the faith when adversity comes, because they accepted the wrong faith.

But in the end, I don't get too worked up about end times and sky watching. The Bible says to live like He is imminent. That's an oxymoron. Live life He could come in the next second, while living like there is still much to be done.

:hi:
 
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