Let's Talk About Sin

#151
#151
PKT_VOL said:
Dude, I am way too tired to type out Pascal's Wager. Just google it.
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Dude... I've already given my brief understanding, and now you're asking me to prove why something I said doesn't fit a definition (or understanding thereof) that you're not willing to provide.

I have no interest in addressing your question just so you can then come back and reply that it means something else to you.

Have a good night.

Edit: And a very snobbish and presumptive statement on your part. Perhaps you should go Google supercilious.
 
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#152
#152
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Dude... I've already given my brief understanding, and now you're asking me to prove why something I said doesn't fit a definition (or understanding thereof) that you're not willing to provide.

I have no interest in addressing your question just so you can then come back and reply that it means something else to you.

Have a good night.
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It just has nothing to do with contradicting Pascal's Wager. I don't know what you are getting at.

Goodnight though :hi:
 
#153
#153
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Edit: And a very snobbish and presumptive statement on your part. Perhaps you should go Google supercilious.
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Really? I am tired. You asked a very vague question to what I thought was a pretty straightforward concept. Thus, unless you narrowed the question by telling me what exactly you are getting at, I would have to type a lot on my phone (which I hate). Thus, I suggested googling it as it would be much faster than me typing it out. How that is condescending excapes me.

But to your smartass comment, I don't need to google "supercilious".
 
#154
#154
To the Biblical Scholars, this is not meant to be offensive, so please don't think it so. What is your opinion on the Bible being the single most editted piece of literature of all time? Many, many "gospels" are known to exist that were not included in the Bible for one reason or another. This opens up the question of who decided which books should be included in the Bible, which I could be mistaken but takes us back to Emperor Constantine I. Constantine I is himself an interesting figure in history as he didn't proclaim a Christian faith til later in life, and some have speculated he did so mainly to unite his people. (But I'm not making that claim as I wasn't there and I doubt any historical evidence to prove or disprove such a theory still exists.)

Move forward in history and we have the King James version of the Bible, which I have heard was editted in parts to favor the king, which isn't a huge leap in logic to me based on human nature.

And lets add to all of this that before much of the Bible was written down, it was oral history. People speak of books being written by so-and-so, but from indications I have read through the years, most of the Gospels weren't actually written down until many years after the deaths of the supposed authors. The stories were spread by word of mouth, and it is not uncommon that stories spread in such a way change over time.

And please, before you go on an all out tirade against me, understand, I am someone who wants to believe. I look for reasons to believe because I see faith bring comfort to others. Unfortunately, faith is not something hardwired into my system, doubt is. I'm someone who has prayed to God to show me signs, but either I'm blind, or they've never come. Some I'm not attacking your beliefs, I'm trying to understand how you justify it. And maybe justify is the wrong word. I want to understand, so please, explain it to me, but can you please do so in a fashion that doesn't involve "it just is". Every time I have looked for someone to explain to me, they fall short, because many times they don't have the answers themselves, so they take it as an attack. I get accused of trying to confuse them, of trying to make them doubt. That is not my goal. I just want to understand. To be honest, I am a man torn between two very different things I've been taught. Science and religion. I cannot find a way to reconcile the two.


And, so as not to decieve and be straight forward, while I believe the Bible contains many scriptures of moral import, I also feel it, as well as most religious texts, are divisive in nature. Too many bad things in this world have been done with people trying to use the Bible as a reason why.
 
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#155
#155
Excellent post Weez. I'm sort of in the same boat as you. (We appear to be a lot alike) I've struggled myself with what to believe and not believe, and have many questions. Sadly when I ask these questions I'm often met with aggression, or told because that's what the Bible says. I'm not sure that's how you should treat a supposed lost soul. I never mean my questions to be disrespectful, nor am I just trying to mess with religious people. I respect their thoughts and wish they would respect mine as well. I honestly seek answers, yet when I get the responses I get it it turns me off to religions. I can sit and discuss stuff with an open mind all day long, when the person can't do the same I'm done. I have a friend that's very religious and she is very open and listens to what I have to say and that helps. Idk I don't want to get in an internet discussion on this cause a lot of people would act negatively towards different thinking.
 
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#156
#156
Weezer said:
To the Biblical Scholars, this is not meant to be offensive, so please don't think it so. What is your opinion on the Bible being the single most editted piece of literature of all time? Many, many "gospels" are known to exist that were not included in the Bible for one reason or another. This opens up the question of who decided which books should be included in the Bible, which I could be mistaken but takes us back to Emperor Constantine I. Constantine I is himself an interesting figure in history as he didn't proclaim a Christian faith til later in life, and some have speculated he did so mainly to unite his people. (But I'm not making that claim as I wasn't there and I doubt any historical evidence to prove or disprove such a theory still exists.)

Move forward in history and we have the King James version of the Bible, which I have heard was editted in parts to favor the king, which isn't a huge leap in logic to me based on human nature.

And lets add to all of this that before much of the Bible was written down, it was oral history. People speak of books being written by so-and-so, but from indications I have read through the years, most of the Gospels weren't actually written down until many years after the deaths of the supposed authors. The stories were spread by word of mouth, and it is not uncommon that stories spread in such a way change over time.

And please, before you go on an all out tirade against me, understand, I am someone who wants to believe. I look for reasons to believe because I see faith bring comfort to others. Unfortunately, faith is not something hardwired into my system, doubt is. I'm someone who has prayed to God to show me signs, but either I'm blind, or they've never come. Some I'm not attacking your beliefs, I'm trying to understand how you justify it. And maybe justify is the wrong word. I want to understand, so please, explain it to me, but can you please do so in a fashion that doesn't involve "it just is". Every time I have looked for someone to explain to me, they fall short, because many times they don't have the answers themselves, so they take it as an attack. I get accused of trying to confuse them, of trying to make them doubt. That is not my goal. I just want to understand. To be honest, I am a man torn between two very different things I've been taught. Science and religion. I cannot find a way to reconcile the two.


And, so as not to decieve and be straight forward, while I believe the Bible contains many scriptures of moral import, I also feel it, as well as most religious texts, are divisive in nature. Too many bad things in this world have been done with people trying to use the Bible as a reason why.
Click to expand...


If you really want to know

The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict Fully Updated To Answer The Questions Challenging Christians Today: Josh McDowell: 0020049106884: Amazon.com: Books
 
#157
#157
On 2nd thought Weez I'll give you a short answer because I like you.

The Bible is the most copied and translated book in history.
Many of those copies are very old and complete. The fact that there are so many lead to it being accuarate as there are many to compare. Also with access to the old copies its easy to see if anything has been lost.

The current list for the OT and NT can be trusted because the council who formed the list opperated on a "when in doubt throw it out" system. That not to say some trust worthy books were not left out.

And last. Wrong commited in the name of God does not change the truth of God.
Not long ago a Bama fan tried to kill the Barns trees.
One Bama fan killed another Bama fan for not being upset enough. We don't now believe all Ba a fans to be lawless sh!t heads. ( well, not really anyway)
 
#160
#160
IBlvNTmWrk said:
You and/or your mother are mistaken. The belief that interracial marriage is a sin is secular... not biblical. Most likely routed more in southern heritage.
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Interracial bias is not a "southern heritage". Racism is alive and well in the entire country and always has been. Had the war of Northern Aggression never happened (i.e. secession been allowed to just happen) the north would have eventually had their own civil war over slavery. It wasn't as prevalent in the north, but it was there and it was there in a big way. It's always a truth that the victor rewrites history the way they want it to be. However, just denying that it existed and blaming it solely on another part of the country doesn't fix it.

Although, Barry tries this philosophy on a daily basis.....if you say it enough, then it has to be true.
 
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#161
#161
Vol8188 said:
So Ghandi goes to hell because he was born in the wrong country.

Pedophiles and mass murders go to heaven, as long as they repent?

What kinda ####ed up god are you boys worshipping?
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What do you care? You are an atheist (i.e. don't believe in a deity). The fact that you admit the existence of a god that can be worshiped show you aren't an atheist.
 
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#162
#162
82_VOL_83 said:
What do you care? You are an atheist (i.e. don't believe in a deity). The fact that you admit the existence of a god that can be worshiped show you aren't an atheist.
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When did I admit the existence of a god?

And why are you so shocked that a thread titled "let's talk about sin", that specifically asks the question "do atheists believe in sin" why are you idiots so shocked that a few atheists showed up for the conversation?
 
#163
#163
OK, I grew up Southern Baptist. I know witnessing when I see it. I have yet to see true witnessing on this forum. Period. There is no passionate giving of testimony, offering to pray WITH someone (different than praying FOR them), or just plain hell fire and brimstone sermons.

What I have seen is defense of belief and faith. What I have also seen is one or two real atheists with a whole bunch of 5 year olds using the keyboard to try and convince people that there OWN BELIEFS are stupid. I find this rather disingenuous for those who profess to be atheists and therefore simply DON'T believe in a deity. Why do you really care what someone else believes? If you want to be an atheist, then simply tell us what you believe or don't believe. If you want to be a Christian, tell us what you believe or don't believe. If you want to be a muslim, tell us what you believe or don't believe. I just don't get the constant ridicule. It makes you sound EXTREMELY childish. But there again...........
 
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#164
#164
Vol8188 said:
When did I admit the existence of a god?

And why are you so shocked that a thread titled "let's talk about sin", that specifically asks the question "do atheists believe in sin" why are you idiots so shocked that a few atheists showed up for the conversation?
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Then discuss sin on the basis of your lack of belief in a god of any type instead of criticizing those that do. IMO, you aren't a "real" atheist, just an agnostic with no balls.
 
#168
#168
82_VOL_83 said:
Interracial bias is not a "southern heritage". Racism is alive and well in the entire country and always has been. Had the war of Northern Aggression never happened (i.e. secession been allowed to just happen) the north would have eventually had their own civil war over slavery. It wasn't as prevalent in the north, but it was there and it was there in a big way. It's always a truth that the victor rewrites history the way they want it to be. However, just denying that it existed and blaming it solely on another part of the country doesn't fix it.

Although, Barry tries this philosophy on a daily basis.....if you say it enough, then it has to be true.
Click to expand...

I agree with much of your post, though I don't fully understand the history lesson as I never claimed racism didn't exist in the north. I simply corrected your statement suggesting that the Bible was against interracial marriage, and that it was possibly more attributable to someone's upbringing (i.e. something they learned growing up).

I am curious though... if you don't believe interracial bias is part of southern heritage, then what do you attribute it to?
 
#169
#169
Weezer said:
To the Biblical Scholars, this is not meant to be offensive, so please don't think it so. What is your opinion on the Bible being the single most editted piece of literature of all time? Many, many "gospels" are known to exist that were not included in the Bible for one reason or another. This opens up the question of who decided which books should be included in the Bible, which I could be mistaken but takes us back to Emperor Constantine I. Constantine I is himself an interesting figure in history as he didn't proclaim a Christian faith til later in life, and some have speculated he did so mainly to unite his people. (But I'm not making that claim as I wasn't there and I doubt any historical evidence to prove or disprove such a theory still exists.)

Move forward in history and we have the King James version of the Bible, which I have heard was editted in parts to favor the king, which isn't a huge leap in logic to me based on human nature.

And lets add to all of this that before much of the Bible was written down, it was oral history. People speak of books being written by so-and-so, but from indications I have read through the years, most of the Gospels weren't actually written down until many years after the deaths of the supposed authors. The stories were spread by word of mouth, and it is not uncommon that stories spread in such a way change over time.

And please, before you go on an all out tirade against me, understand, I am someone who wants to believe. I look for reasons to believe because I see faith bring comfort to others. Unfortunately, faith is not something hardwired into my system, doubt is. I'm someone who has prayed to God to show me signs, but either I'm blind, or they've never come. Some I'm not attacking your beliefs, I'm trying to understand how you justify it. And maybe justify is the wrong word. I want to understand, so please, explain it to me, but can you please do so in a fashion that doesn't involve "it just is". Every time I have looked for someone to explain to me, they fall short, because many times they don't have the answers themselves, so they take it as an attack. I get accused of trying to confuse them, of trying to make them doubt. That is not my goal. I just want to understand. To be honest, I am a man torn between two very different things I've been taught. Science and religion. I cannot find a way to reconcile the two.


And, so as not to decieve and be straight forward, while I believe the Bible contains many scriptures of moral import, I also feel it, as well as most religious texts, are divisive in nature. Too many bad things in this world have been done with people trying to use the Bible as a reason why.
Click to expand...

Great post Weezer... and BJ ..I certainly understand your questions.... I am not trying to answer your questions as I DO NOT consider myself a Biblical scholar....

History always depends on the author ...who is writing that history, what is their point of view and what are they trying to prove or disprove. All history has to take mans bias into consideration. It is seen today in difference in News cast from say Fox news verses NBC news report of same incident.

As to the question of why the Bible has been edited so often, you will understand if you try to read an original 1611 KJV Bible... the language is ridiculous, no one today could understand.

If you are truly looking for a reason to believe I suggest as Slice you read
Why I believe - by James Kennedy
you can find it here
Why I Believe: D. James Kennedy: 9780849937392: Amazon.com: Books
 
#171
#171
Weezer said:
To the Biblical Scholars, this is not meant to be offensive, so please don't think it so. What is your opinion on the Bible being the single most editted piece of literature of all time? Many, many "gospels" are known to exist that were not included in the Bible for one reason or another. This opens up the question of who decided which books should be included in the Bible, which I could be mistaken but takes us back to Emperor Constantine I. Constantine I is himself an interesting figure in history as he didn't proclaim a Christian faith til later in life, and some have speculated he did so mainly to unite his people. (But I'm not making that claim as I wasn't there and I doubt any historical evidence to prove or disprove such a theory still exists.)

Move forward in history and we have the King James version of the Bible, which I have heard was editted in parts to favor the king, which isn't a huge leap in logic to me based on human nature.

And lets add to all of this that before much of the Bible was written down, it was oral history. People speak of books being written by so-and-so, but from indications I have read through the years, most of the Gospels weren't actually written down until many years after the deaths of the supposed authors. The stories were spread by word of mouth, and it is not uncommon that stories spread in such a way change over time.

And please, before you go on an all out tirade against me, understand, I am someone who wants to believe. I look for reasons to believe because I see faith bring comfort to others. Unfortunately, faith is not something hardwired into my system, doubt is. I'm someone who has prayed to God to show me signs, but either I'm blind, or they've never come. Some I'm not attacking your beliefs, I'm trying to understand how you justify it. And maybe justify is the wrong word. I want to understand, so please, explain it to me, but can you please do so in a fashion that doesn't involve "it just is". Every time I have looked for someone to explain to me, they fall short, because many times they don't have the answers themselves, so they take it as an attack. I get accused of trying to confuse them, of trying to make them doubt. That is not my goal. I just want to understand. To be honest, I am a man torn between two very different things I've been taught. Science and religion. I cannot find a way to reconcile the two.


And, so as not to decieve and be straight forward, while I believe the Bible contains many scriptures of moral import, I also feel it, as well as most religious texts, are divisive in nature. Too many bad things in this world have been done with people trying to use the Bible as a reason why.
Click to expand...

Your sentiments sum up the single biggest reason why I will never understand why (some) Christians take the Bible as the literal word of God without a giant grain of salt. I dunno how anybody looking at the situation objectively and rationally come to that conclusion (in a literal sense). It makes people fighting/disputing over verses and their meaning comical in my mind. Hell, we do that literature, philosophy, song lyrics, speeches, etc where we have complete and unabridged versions of the original straight from their mouths/pens. If people want to walk away with a general story of God and Jesus, that is one thing, but buying into specific verses/literal word of God makes no sense.

The fact is, we will never know what really happened, what was really said, etc. Makes believing in the divinity of such accounts that much harder.
 
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#172
#172
PKT_VOL said:
Your sentiments sum up the single biggest reason why I will never understand why (some) Christians take the Bible as the literal word of God without a giant grain of salt. I dunno how anybody looking at the situation objectively and rationally come to that conclusion (in a literal sense). It makes people fighting/disputing over verses and their meaning comical in my mind. Hell, we do that literature, philosophy, song lyrics, speeches, etc where we have complete and unabridged versions of the original straight from their mouths/pens. If people want to walk away with a general story of God and Jesus, that is one thing, but buying into specific verses/literal word of God makes no sense.

The fact is, we will never know what really happened, what was really said, etc. Makes believing in the divinity of such accounts that much harder.
Click to expand...

That is likely because you are looking at things from only your point of view, and not the perspective of Believers.

Think of it this way... as a Christian I believe that God created heaven and earth, and that He walked this earth as a man, healed lepers, made the crippled walk, made the blind see, and died for all of our sins and then rose again. For God who can do all these things, is it really a stretch to "rationalize" that He can't also provide guidance to His written Word?

Seems like a fairly simple concept to me... assuming one believes in God.
 
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#173
#173
IBlvNTmWrk said:
That is likely because you are looking at things from only your point of view, and not the perspective of Believers.

Think of it this way... as a Christian I believe that God created heaven and earth, and that He walked this earth as a man, healed lepers, made the crippled walk, made the blind see, and died for all of our sins and then rose again. For God who can do all these things, is it really a stretch to "rationalize" that He can't also provide guidance to His written Word?

Seems like a fairly simple concept to me... assuming one believes in God.
Click to expand...

The problem is which written word? Which translation? Which version? Which interpretation? Which one of the Gospels left out of the Bible? Which edited part? So on and so forth.

Like I said, if one takes a general story from the Bible (as you outlined above), that is fine. Reading the KJV or the version of your choice, and believing it to be the literal word of God (given the history of the Bible) is quite another.
 
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#174
#174
PKT_VOL said:
The problem is which written word? Which translation? Which version? Which interpretation? Which one of the Gospels left out of the Bible? Which edited part? So on and so forth.

Like I said, if one takes a general story from the Bible (as you outlined above), that is fine. Reading the KJV or the version of your choice, and believing it to be the literal word of God (given the history of the Bible) is quite another.
Click to expand...

Can you provide another example where four different authors all recorded the same event years later, and the details provided were essentially identical? Just look at recent events with Trayvon Martin... there were stories being reported only weeks and months after the incident and there were tons of inaccuracies.

If you want to argue semantics that one translation might use one word in place of another, or a comma was left out of a sentence... I'm not interested. The Word of God, in it's fully intended meaning, has not changed.

You asked a question and I provided you with numerous examples as to why Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God. It's seems apparent that at this time you would rather look for reasons NOT to believe rather than TO believe.
 
#175
#175
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Can you provide another example where four different authors all recorded the same event years later, and the details provided were essentially identical? Just look at recent events with Trayvon Martin... there were stories being reported only weeks and months after the incident and there were tons of inaccuracies.

If you want to argue semantics that one translation might use one word in place of another, or a comma was left out of a sentence... I'm not interested. The Word of God, in it's fully intended meaning, has not changed.

You asked a question and I provided you with numerous examples as to why Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God. It's seems apparent that at this time you would rather look for reasons NOT to believe rather than TO believe.
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Honestly, given the bold sections, we are not even talking the same language. You believe the four gospels are "essentially identical" and that editing/translation/or sheer leaving out of whole Gospels from the Bible is just mere confusion of a word here or a comma there. We are just too far apart on the nature/reality of the Bible to have a meaningful conversation about such discrepancies.
 
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