Israel vs Palestinians II

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Persian Vol said:
You know in academia people who join these actually do so for a reason? And not to make a point on volnation? Every academic organization is like this. You could join many medical organizations, but why would you?

With all the Israeli sycophants out there in their bubble going out of their way to delegitimize everything they see, at this point it’s probably compromised. But probably not beforehand, when no one other than the genocide scholar community knew what that organization even was.
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Deligitimize?

It’s called stating facts. Because that’s the only thing that can be trusted. Facts. Not some antisemitic blind trust of claims and emotional propaganda used to reinforce a fake news storm and create dissent and ill will towards a land and more pointedly the people who have a connection to it. FACTS. That’s it.
 
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#1,881
NashVol11 said:
Yes, they would, given that they have done so at every turn. Also, justifying outright lying and compromising an academic organization because some Gazawood twitter account told you this genocide is all fake is pretty disgusting
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Facts are the only thing we have left in this world to say when everyone is trying to make you a scapegoat for their own terrorism and antisemitism.

Outright lying? Since when are facts outright lying.

Academic organization give me a f’ing break.
 
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#1,886
#1,886
Hamas indoctrinates hate into their children so that by the time they are teenagers they are literally not so ideologically teenagers any more. They rob them of their childhood and innoncence and use them as weapons and shields. It’s sad, but there is no “oh they’re just teenagers and we must understand and somehow accept their violence and save them from it” rationale that rightfully exists, because the world they live in is not the same one where that rationale makes sense. And unfortunately, the safety of rational adults gets pitted against the safety of teenagers that are fully utilized members of a terrorist organization. Im sorry but explain to me how you protect a child with a stone/gun/bomb that could kill someone while also protecting the adult without such a weapon or the soldier holding said weapon but not actively using it until after they are thrown at/fired upon.

The standards that Jews and Israelis and idf soldiers are held exists nowhere else in the world and it is a form of hate and propaganda in and of itself.

The victims in all of this are the Israelis, the people that Hamas rules before they are brainwashed and forced into participating in terrorism, and maybe even the rest of the world that has been tricked into thinking this has anything to do with “Palestinians” vs Israelis and not Hamas (and the other Islamic extremist organizations) vs Jews and western civilization.
 
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#1,889
#1,889
n_huffhines said:
It's no more biased than the MSM here in the US. Are they wrong that there was a standing ovation? Lol
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Oh you could not be more wrong. MSM is plenty at fault for the lies they tell by not upholding journalistic standards of merit, and the inherent anti-Israel and anti-Jewish biases they have, but they are not the same. Because here we have citizens that can speak up and not be killed for it. And such outlets are forced to issue statements of correction and admit to their faults and lies spread. There is no such check or balance for state run/managed/funded media (Gaza, Gaza health ministry, Al jezeera, etc etc). I don’t like either of them, but they are not the same.
 
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#1,890
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n_huffhines said:
Nope, not even someone as biased as you can twist this into a positive if we're going off reality. They're just flattening a whole city and murdering at a completely normal rate. They aren't taking caution like you guys pretend so you can somehow absolve their turning down ceasefires and continuing to murder women and children at the breadline with your $

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The terms have already been stated; the return of hostages and Hamas' surrender. Why would Israel accept any ceasefire? There is no going back to business and allowing Hamas to continue; might as well come to terms with that.

Civilian casualty is a foundational feature of Hamas' strategy and infrastructure, not a happenstance.
Hamas' tunnel network is considerably larger than previously thought, between 350-450 miles and perhaps as much as 500 miles, and with 5700 tunnel access points. In an area of about 140 square miles. Some tunnels are 150' deep. The access points and above/underground munitions depots, staging and launch areas, living quarters and storage areas are constructed in schools, medical facilities, civic/business/residential structures, mosques, and UNRWA facilities. It dwarfs the 120-mile Cu Chi system in Vietnam.

Why? Hamas cannot go toe-toe with the IDF on neutral ground, and could not survive without using the civilian population and infrastructure to shield them. They never pledge to establish actual safe zones for them, void of combatants. The whole of Gaza has been designed by Hamas since 2006 to be a civilian kill-zone, and an extraordinary breach of international law.

Casualties: There is no reasonably accurate accounting of civilian vs. militant casualties in Gaza for several reasons.
-As in the case of communist Cuba, the left has controlled the narrative for decades, regurgitating and spinning up into whole cloth anything the regime fed them. And the regime controls the population.
-There are a number of Hamas-affiliated militant groups operating there in conjunction with Hamas, civilian combatants, and a large number of unknowns. Is a 13 year old with a rifle a child? Yes, and a legitimate combatant target.
-Hamas dresses as civilians do, to avoid detection and combat engagement. This practice is termed perfidy and is yet another spectacular breach of international law you don't hear Israeli critics talk about. Combatants are to dress distinctly from the population.
-Frankly, the Western left has become complicit and sanctions Hamas using civilians in this manner, by sin of omission. 'The lead' simply can't bleed enough, and whatever hurts America's proxy in the Middle East is good for the agenda.

Whatever the actual rate of actual civilian casualty, it is exacerbated by having no place for would be refugees to go, to the degree Hamas doesn't forcibly prevent it. That is, none of the neighboring Arab countries has provided haven allowing them to leave the conflict zone(s). Neither has Hamas. Israel has done exactly that.

Who cares?
Obviously no one in the Arab world. Nor Westerners bleating about it; whether leftist agenda or someone apolitically alarmed by the conflict, both have propagated for decades a conflict that should have been allowed - assisted even - to conclude when populations were much less dense. Until the Arab understands Israel is permanent, there is demonstrably no peaceable 2-state solution nor quasi-state as Gaza demonstrates, and the 'world community' is issuing the statement, THEN a path to resolution is established.

I'd argue Israel is about the only entity demonstrably placing value on those Arab lives, in the next post.
 
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#1,891
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n_huffhines said:
Nope, not even someone as biased as you can twist this into a positive if we're going off reality. They're just flattening a whole city and murdering at a completely normal rate. They aren't taking caution like you guys pretend so you can somehow absolve their turning down ceasefires and continuing to murder women and children at the breadline with your $

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What Israel does to minimize casualties:

"The IDF’s warning method, which involved dividing Gaza into multiple small polygons—smaller in built-up areas and larger in open terrain—and warning residents before attacking a polygon263, often meant sacrificing the element of surprise. The IDF not only issued general warnings for residents to evacuate but also announced in advance what their targets would be within this limited area. This approach contrasts with typical urban warfare, where minimizing civilian harm usually does not justify the loss of surprise.264 Despite criticism regarding the accuracy and efficiency of this method265, to the best of our knowledge, no other military in the world employs such a specific and targeted warning system, although general warnings (as in Fallujah) are occasionally used.

Indeed, members of an independent review committee of senior US military officials and leading experts in urban warfare expressed concern that the precedent posed by the IDF’s early warning system could undermine the military effectiveness of other armies.266"

Excerpt from this massive investigative study of the Gaza war:
https://besacenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/213-2.9.2025-Edited.pdf
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Well, what specific warning mechanisms do they use?

"What can be said with confidence is that the IDF regularly uses a wide variety of warnings, almost certainly more than any other military. Best known are phone calls to individuals within a building to be struck (and those nearby) in order to gather information about the number of people there and instruct them to evacuate. As I previously explained following a research trip to Israel with Colonel John Merriamat the invitation of the IDF (see his post on our findings here),

To conduct the phone warnings, the IDF employs a specialized team of trained personnel who run a “phone bank” with the sole purpose of contacting individuals who might be affected by a strike. The calls are in some cases extremely precise. For instance, the warning may be that a strike will occur at a specified time. Live operators make some phone warnings, while others consist of generic pre-recorded messages. The personnel in the warning cell speak Arabic fluently, have received cultural training on the civilian population in the target area, and whenever feasible, use all-source fused intelligence to focus on specific individuals who might be at risk. For example, understanding Palestinian culture and family structures, the warning cell may try to contact the male head of a family in a particular apartment building, knowing that he will effectively disseminate the warning to other family members. If a minor or a female answers the phone call, the warning cell attempts to speak to the head of the family. When several buildings in a particular area are targeted, the warning cell may also contact a local civilian official or an informal community leader who will be able to spread the warning effectively and insist on obedience.

The IDF conveys warnings by many other means, such as leaflets, social media, text messages, and radio and television broadcasts. And it regularly monitors the area to assess whether civilians have heeded the warnings. For instance, the IDF has been harvesting data from mobile phones in Gaza to give it a real-time picture of where Gazans are located following its warning to evacuate the north.

Finally, the IDF provides general warnings, especially when specific ones are impractical. For example, the IDF broadly warns civilians to stay away from enemy forces and positions. Additionally, it issues regional warnings addressing areas where military operations are anticipated. The warning that residents of Gaza City should evacuate to the south where the risk will be lower exemplifies this type of warning (see my earlier discussion of the evacuation warning here). Indeed, Israel’s designation of evacuation routes comports with the European Court of Human Rights’ 2005 Isayeva judgment, which emphasized the importance of designated safe evacuation routes in the context of the armed conflict in Chechnya.

As we are witnessing, civilian casualties in Gaza, even when they amount to lawful collateral damage, benefit Hamas by undercutting support for Israel. Thus, it is no surprise that Hamas has violated its passive precautions obligations by failing to evacuate any civilians from northern Gaza and operating from civilian buildings, including those that are specially protected, like medical facilities. Equally, its failure to warn civilians away from areas where attacks are sure to take place violates IHL, as does urging them to ignore Israeli warnings.

Concluding Thoughts

Without more facts, it is too early to say whether the IDF has complied with the obligation to warn in every case. However, there is no question that the IDF’s warnings practice, in general, is the gold standard. Indeed, as a matter of policy, the IDF typically exceeds what the law requires. It is likewise clear that its warning to evacuate northern Gaza constitutes an “effective warning,” as that concept is understood in IHL.

This is in sharp contrast to Hamas’s failure to provide any warnings to the civilian population of Gaza and its efforts to neutralize the effectiveness of the IDF’s. That Hamas has violated its own warning obligation under IHL is simply indisputable."

Excerpt from this excellent article:
https://lieber.westpoint.edu/idf-hamas-duty-to-warn/#:~:text=Israel's%202014%20operations%20in%20Gaza,decisions%2C%20and%20not%20legal%20obligation.
 
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A rebuttal to some VN posters infatuation with Omer Batov, 'Genocide Scholar' who "knows genocide when he sees it"​

Even if he has to conjure it up and disregard evidence of military doctrine soundly disputing it.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

excerpt from this article:​

I’m a war scholar. There is no genocide in Gaza.​

Israeli’s military actions are against terrorists. Civilian deaths are tragic, but in the Strip, they are part of Hamas’s strategy.​


"In his New York Times column titled “I’m a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It,” Omer Bartov accused Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. As a professor of genocide studies at Brown University, he should know better. Genocide is not defined by a few comments taken out of context, by estimates of casualties or destruction, or by how war looks in headlines or on social media. It is defined by specific intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group in whole or in part. That is a high legal bar. Bartov did not meet it. He did not even try.

I am not a lawyer or a political activist. I am a war expert. I have led soldiers in combat. I have trained military units in urban warfare for decades, and studied and taught military history, strategy and the laws of war for years. Since the Hamas-led terrorist attacks in southern Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, I have been to Gaza four times embedded with the Israel Defense Forces. I have interviewed the prime minister of Israel, the defense minister, the IDF chief of staff, the leadership of the Southern Command, and dozens of commanders and soldiers on the front lines. I have reviewed their orders, watched their targeting process and seen soldiers take real risks to avoid harming civilians. Nothing I have seen or studied resembles genocide or genocidal intent.

Bartov claims that five statements by Israeli leaders prove genocidal intent. He begins with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s comment on Oct. 7 that Hamas and Palestinian terrorists would “pay a huge price” for the massacre of 1,200 people and the kidnapping of 251 others. That is not a call for genocide. It is what any leader would say after the worst terrorist attack in the nation’s history.

He also cites Netanyahu’s statements that Hamas would be destroyed and that civilians should evacuate combat zones. That is not evidence of a desire to destroy a people. It is what professional militaries do when fighting an enemy that hides among civilians.

Bartov presents Netanyahu’s reference to “remember Amalek” as a smoking gun. But this is a phrase from Jewish history and tradition. It is engraved at Israel’s Holocaust memorial—Yad Vashem: The World Holocaust Remembrance Center in Jerusalem—and also appears on the Holocaust memorial in The Hague. In both places, it serves as a warning to remain vigilant against threats, not as a call for mass killing.

The professor also highlights former Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant’s use of the term “human animals” to describe Hamas fighters. That is not a war crime. After the slaughter, rape and atrocities done to civilians on Oct. 7, many would understand or even share that reaction.

Unable to find intent among those actually directing the war, Bartov turns to far-right politicians like Bezalel Smotrich and Nissim Vaturi. These individuals do not command troops, issue orders or shape battlefield decisions. I have studied the actual orders. They focus on destroying the Hamas terrorist organization, rescuing the remaining hostages and protecting civilians in Gaza whenever possible. Their rhetoric is irrelevant to the legal case.

Bartov cites death tolls from Hamas health authorities without question. He says 58,000 have been killed, including 17,000 children. But these numbers come from a terrorist organization. They mix civilians and fighters, and count anyone under 18 as a child, even though Hamas uses teenagers and younger children as combatants. The figures are not independently verified and have been shown to contain false details, including names, ages and sex. Civilian deaths are tragic, but in Gaza, they are also part of Hamas’s strategy.

No military operation is judged solely by body counts or destruction figures. If we used Bartov’s logic, every major war would be called genocide. A total of 2 million civilians died in the Korean War, an average of 54,000 per month. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars killed hundreds of thousands. The fight against ISIS leveled multiple cities and killed tens of thousands. None of those wars was considered genocidal. War is evaluated based on the actions of commanders, the goals set by leaders and how well the military follows the laws of war, not by statistics taken out of context.

...This is not a campaign of extermination. It is a war against Hamas, a terrorist army embedded in civilian areas by design.

The law matters. So does precision. And, above all, truth matters."
 
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#1,893
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Adam Sandler said:
Oh you could not be more wrong. MSM is plenty at fault for the lies they tell by not upholding journalistic standards of merit, and the inherent anti-Israel and anti-Jewish biases they have, but they are not the same. Because here we have citizens that can speak up and not be killed for it. And such outlets are forced to issue statements of correction and admit to their faults and lies spread. There is no such check or balance for state run/managed/funded media (Gaza, Gaza health ministry, Al jezeera, etc etc). I don’t like either of them, but they are not the same.
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IS THE ARTICLE LYING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED?

You can think whatever you want about AJ. The article is well-sourced.
 
#1,894
#1,894
Adam Sandler said:
Imagine calling it the execution of children (presumed to be innocent) as a facade for the defending of hate and terrorism.
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It's official. Defending children is terrorism.

Imagine thinking nobody would actually care about children. Love for Israelis or hate for Jews can be the only motivating factors? Palestinian children don't count at all? They don't matter?
 
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#1,895
n_huffhines said:
It's official. Defending children is terrorism.

Imagine thinking nobody would actually care about children. Love for Israelis or hate for Jews can be the only motivating factors? Palestinian children don't count at all? They don't matter?
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Literally nobody said they don’t matter. Nobody.

When they have a weapon in their hand, the defense of their potential victim(s) comes before the fact they are a child. Or you get more dead people than one and legitimize and encourage Hamas using children as weapons.

And like I said, they cease to be a child in their mind long ago when Hamas brainwashed them and turn them into a tool for terrorism. There is no stopping that threat with a piece of candy or an it’s ok calm down dear I understand what you’re going through.

You can’t judge what you can’t possibly understand. You gonna take a bullet just because a young person is the one holding the gun? Didn’t think so. And nobody should have to.

If you got a better way to handle it, by all means go there and show them the way. But don’t sit here and tell me the Jews/Israelis are at fault because they didn’t save the child’s life while trying to defend their own. That is an absolutely crazy and unrealistic standard that nobody should be held to.
 
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#1,897
#1,897
Today we remember the 11 Israelis murdered at the 1972 Munich Olympics in Germany, when Palestinian terrorists stormed the Olympic Village, taking Israeli athletes hostage. After hours of fear and failed rescue attempts, 11 Israelis were murdered.

53 years later, history repeats itself: 48 Israelis are still held hostage in Hamas’ dungeonss - by another Palestinian terror group.

From Munich to Gaza, the message is clear: terror targets Israelis simply for being Israeli.
Let them go NOW! 🎗️

IMG_9177.jpeg
 
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#1,898
#1,898
Smokey123 said:
She got expelled, charged with battery and is being sued

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Yup she’s part of the problem. Another mislead and misunderstanding young individual thousands of miles away with a lot of understandable anger about a situation and directing her frustration at the wrong people.

“F*** Hamas! Free Israelis/Jews from persecution/terror!” Should be the slogan we’re all saying but I have never seen that in a twitter post. I wonder why.

Not gonna comment on if the punishment fit the crime because I don’t know and neither do you. Have no idea what happened before the camera started rolling. I’d be willing to bet her verbal abuse started before the camera rolled and continued after. All that because he wore a tshirt showing solidarity with a force that fights terrorism.
 
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#1,899
#1,899
Adam Sandler said:
Literally nobody said they don’t matter. Nobody.

When they have a weapon in their hand, the defense of their potential victim(s) comes before the fact they are a child. Or you get more dead people than one and legitimize and encourage Hamas using children as weapons.

And like I said, they cease to be a child in their mind long ago when Hamas brainwashed them and turn them into a tool for terrorism. There is no stopping that threat with a piece of candy or an it’s ok calm down dear I understand what you’re going through.

You can’t judge what you can’t possibly understand. You gonna take a bullet just because a young person is the one holding the gun? Didn’t think so. And nobody should have to.

If you got a better way to handle it, by all means go there and show them the way. But don’t sit here and tell me the Jews/Israelis are at fault because they didn’t save the child’s life while trying to defend their own. That is an absolutely crazy and unrealistic standard that nobody should be held to.
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You said this

"Imagine calling it the execution of children (presumed to be innocent) as a facade for the defending of hate and terrorism."

And the implication is that he really wants to defend hate and terrorism, not defend children. You're implying they are just a chess piece and that they don't matter to either side.

IDK who you are, but this thread is full of people who can't fathom that we would choose innocent children over the Israeli regime. The idea that we just care about innocents, and that's it, is not a satisfactory explanation. They baselessly conclude our motivation is to defend terrorism and hate. You're doing exactly the same thing as them.

People who claim to be disciples of Christ ITT are not only condoning war crimes and the mass murder of innocents, but also they can't bring themselves to accept that any of the opposition has pure motivations in defending the innocent.
 
#1,900
#1,900
@Adam Sandler

Let's start fresh, since I don'k know you. Let's start here:

Things were relatively fine* between Israel and the Arab states until 1967 when Israel attacked them and took Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem by force, subjugating the Palestinians there. They've been illegally occupying these territories ever since, ipso facto, Israel has been committing war crimes continuously for nearly 50 years....we all hate Hamas, but these sins are the climate that created Hamas. Hamas is just a reaction to war crimes.

Does Gaza have a right to defend itself against these war crimes?

*aside form border skirmishes, which is pretty standard stuff
 
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