Israel vs Palestinians II

#1,004
#1,004
Orangeslice13 said:
It’s the hypocrisy of the **** humans that post in this thread that surprise me. (Obviously not you) we have actual footage of Hamas shooting from aid tents. They say nothing. They say they have condemned Hamas but there are no actual posts that say so. They then scour the net for any possible link that says Israel might have done something similar so they can say “see, Israel does it too”. Which is just more hypocrisy. Condemnation for the lesser Jewish offense but silence on the terrorist. The biggest POS actually believes that Israel should be more responsible for the people of Gaza than their leaders. The other POS spams propaganda from white nationalists websites and his links have been debunked at nearly 100%.
They throw around ethnic as an accusation against a country that has 2 million Arab citizens while ignoring the people who started this conflict who have zero Jews remaining in their area.
Literally…..you’re the only person that posts in this thread who is critical of Israel’s actions that isn’t just absolute trash
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There’s alot to unpack there. I will say I have seen Nash and eastern at least condemn/recognize Hamas being terrible, maybe not to the level others have but it was there.

I can’t speak for them nor do I know their intentions but when I see it I don’t view it as an excuse for Hamas. Hamas is evil most accept that it doesn’t have to be acknowledged after everything they do. Israel is held to a higher standard than an extremist groups

But I think when it comes to political opinions most people do have good intentions and think the stances they take are morally right, the villainizing of everyone that doesn’t think like me and they’re evil causes a lot of issues in politics (not that I’m saying u do that just in general) So I’m sure that influences my above opinion
 
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#1,006
#1,006
EasternVol said:
Where has hamas stated no Jews as a matter of policy? Their charter say Jews are free to stay but under hamas / Muslim governance.
Israel is genociding Gazans. It can't be said that they're genociding hamas since hamas is a political party.
Gaza isn't Israel; it's occupied territory. Any government attacking a foe with the disregard for noncombatant casualties and frequent targeting of noncombatants like Israel has done would also be condemned as Israel, Sudan, Myanmar, and Russia have.
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Hamas is the elected, governing political body of Gazans who've launched continual attacks against Israel since their 1987 inception. They are the target group Israel intends to destroy, and they are a legitimate military target. Now you should understand the tongue in cheek phrasing that "Hamas is the only group Israel is genociding'.

After the Middle East was conquered and colonized by Arabs beginning in 7th century AD, the Arabs were subsequently conquered by the Ottoman Empire, who held 'Palestine' from about 1517 - 1917. The Ottomans had decided to enter WWI on the side of the Central Powers and were subsequently penalized for their failed venture by reduction of their territorial holdings. The British (and French) became primary overseers of the region, and architects of its future delineation. Following the end of the British Mandate resulting in the region being lobbed into the lap of the UN, Israel declared independence on May 15, 1948. They were attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon the following day, the Arabs declaring to exterminate the Jew state and those pesky Jews who dared to hope. I'll have another post on that.

Following Israel's victory in 1948, administration of Gaza fell primarily to Egypt and some instance of cooperative administration by Syria when the two formed the UAR (Unite Arab Republic) consisting of just the two states. Except for a brief time of conflict over the Suez in 1956, Egypt was overseer of Gaza. Arab nations once again waged a genocidal effort to eradicate Israel in the 1967 Six Day War; once again lost, and Egypt subsequently ceded territorial claim to Gaza and Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. Israel became overseer and administrator for Gaza, likewise taking positions in the Golan and West Bank due to those governments' participation in the attempted genocide.

Occupation is not an illegitimate or illegal position unless taken in an offensive action. And I'd argue that if a position is continually the origin of attacks against me, at a time of my choosing the offender has no expectation of retaining that position, land ownership. No person or group can ever be under the expectation to interminably live under fear of attack. Israel did not have to withdraw from Gaza and allow Arab self-governance, but it did.

Now to the point of Hamas disposition towards the Jew, and the assertion they are free to stay, etc...I'm not sure how you wrote that with a straight face.

This is a nice encapsulation of Hamas past and present position on Jewry, not just in Palestine, not just in Arab nations, but wherever they are found. What Hamas Leaders Actually Want – In Their Own Words » ISGAP. I'll except those from Hamas' Al-Aqsa television network:
  • On November 5, 2010, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, after justifying the persecution and expulsions of Jews in various societies over the last millennium, proclaimed, “[t]he series of expulsions continues to this day. Blood continues to be shed, martyrs continue to fall, our sons continue to hoist the banner high, and Allah willing, their expulsion from Palestine in its entirety is certain to come. We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near.”
  • On May 11, 2011, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official and cleric Yunis Al-Astal explained, “[t]he [Jews] are brought in droves to Palestine so that the Palestinians – and the Islamic nation behind them – will have the honor of annihilating the evil of this gang,” promising, “n just a few years, all the Zionists and the settlers will realize that their arrival in Palestine was for the purpose of the great massacre, by means of which Allah wants to relieve humanity of their evil.”
    [*]On August 20, 2012, in a sermon broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Sheik Ahmad Bahr prayed, “Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
    [*]On March 2, 2014, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas cleric Wael Al-Zard noted that “[t]he Palestinian woman . . . . is no longer satisfied merely with equipping her sons for Jihad,” but that now “he equips herself, prepares herself, trains herself, and takes up arms herself.”
    [*]On March 23, 2014, at a “Perseverance and Loyalty to the Martyr’s Path” rally, broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Ismail Haniyah, head of Hamas’s political bureau, proclaimed that “[w]e are a people that yearn for death, just as our enemies yearn for life,” and Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad promised that Hamas would destroy Israel within a few years.
    [*]On January 29, 2016, Haniyah explained, “East of the city of Gaza, there are heroes underground, digging through rocks and building tunnels. West of Gaza, there are heroes testing rockets every day. This is all in preparation – in tunnels underground, by means of missiles in the air, as well as in the sea, and everywhere. This constant preparation is for the sake of Palestine, Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa, and for the sake of the Jerusalem Intifada.”
    [*]On July 12, 2018, at a rally broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamad predicted“the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing” and “the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing.”
    [*]On November 16, 2018, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar declared that Israel “will never get anything but guns, fire, martyrdom, death, and killing” from Gaza.
    [*]On July 22, 2018, during a speech broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Gaza Shari’a appeals court judge Sheikh Omar Nofal praised the six virtues of martyrdom, calling it an “individual duty incumbent upon the entire nation,” and asking “[h]ow can anyone cling to this world after hearing all of these great rewards?”
    [*]On June 23, 2019, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras explained about Jews that, “everything people say about massacres and Holocaust – these are all lies. Hitler may have hated them, but it was because of their deeds and crimes.”
    [*]On July 12, 2019, at a March of Return rally that aired on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas Political Bureau member Fathi Hammad implored “you seven million Palestinians abroad, enough warming up! There are Jews everywhere! We must attack every Jew on planet Earth – we must slaughter and kill them, with Allah’s help.” He instructed, “[w]e will die while exploding and cutting the necks and legs of the Jews. We will lacerate them and tear them to pieces, Allah willing!”
    [*]On May 7, 2021, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, senior Hamas official Fathi Hammad called for Palestinians in Jerusalem to “cut off the heads of the Jews.”
    [*]On December 12, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, head of the Hamas Women’s Movement Rajaa Al-Halabi explained that a girl who sets out to be a “martyrdom-seeker” has “only one thing on her mind – to meet her Lord by means of her blood and her body parts,” noting that kindergarten teachers raise children to love Jihad.
    [*]On April 8, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Talal Nassar opined, “I believe that the occupation is heading towards annihilation, and on this platform, I swear by Allah, and let everybody remember this pledge: Those of us who will still be alive will tread with their pure feet… After we trample with our feet all over the skulls of the Zionists, we will tread on the land of Haifa, Jaffa, Tiberias, Jerusalem, and all of the West Bank and our dear [Gaza] Strip. There is no difference between the [borders of] 1967 and 1948.”
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From Hamas' 1988 charter Covenant hamas.asp

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
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Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
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I'm not sure what to make of someone who thinks that should Israel be destroyed, Jews who remained under Muslim rule and diimmi status would live very long or have an existence someone would like for themself.

Next post I'll talk a bit more about land acquisition by native Jews and Jewish groups in the 1800s and the Zionist movement.
 
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#1,007
#1,007
KB5252 said:
Dudes an idiot, he claims Israeli propaganda while spewing absurd propaganda himself. Anything you see hamas recorded themselves doing is AI, nothing to see here........ Hate Israel!
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Yes, LOL, hate is an appropriate response to a regime committing genocide.

I wonder if people thought "hate Germany" was some kind of checkmate in arguments 80 years ago.

Don't hate Germans. Don't hate Israelis. Hate genocidal regimes. Good rules of thumb.
 
#1,008
#1,008
n_huffhines said:
Yes, LOL, hate is an appropriate response to a regime committing genocide.

I wonder if people thought "hate Germany" was some kind of checkmate in arguments 80 years ago.

Don't hate Germans. Don't hate Israelis. Hate genocidal regimes. Good rules of thumb.
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Trying to equate things that are from completely different circumstances 80 years ago will forever be some of the dumbest crap you see in this thread

Germans were very hated and experienced a lot of discrimination and extreme violence both in Europe and the US
 
#1,009
#1,009
Smokey123 said:
When did the us bomb Egypt?
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I remembered it wrong. He bombed Libya next door killing their longtime leader Gadhafi. He was also our president sadly when Egypt did overthrow their 1st democratically elected president and the Muslim Brotherhood came into power. He dropped the ball on Egypt just like everywhere else. He also ran on spreading peace...then bombed at least 6 different nations that we know about including using a drone strike to kill a US citizen. He was an absolute moron when it came to foreign policy just like the Biden administration. Screwed up everything he touched and projected weakness on the world stage, such that all those with bad intentions did whatever they wanted knowing our feckless "leader" didnt have the resolve to stop them. Empty threats from an empty suit.
 
#1,010
#1,010
marcusluvsvols said:
I remembered it wrong. He bombed Libya next door killing their longtime leader Gadhafi. He was also our president sadly when Egypt did overthrow their 1st democratically elected president and the Muslim Brotherhood came into power. He dropped the ball on Egypt just like everywhere else. He also ran on spreading peace...then bombed at least 6 different nations that we know about including using a drone strike to kill a US citizen. He was an absolute moron when it came to foreign policy just like the Biden administration. Screwed up everything he touched and projected weakness on the world stage, such that all those with bad intentions did whatever they wanted knowing our feckless "leader" didnt have the resolve to stop them. Empty threats from an empty suit.
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Oh trust me I don’t like him at all, I just thought I missed where he bombed Egypt.

I don’t think the brotherhood actually ever came into power. iirc they were able to for the most part handle the situation and then banned and imprisoned them. Then held a new election. Obama cut military aid for a few years while the extremism from the brotherhood was growing but then brought it back around 2015 or 16
 
#1,011
#1,011
Smokey123 said:
Trying to equate things that are from completely different circumstances 80 years ago will forever be some of the dumbest crap you see in this thread

Germans were very hated and experienced a lot of discrimination and extreme violence both in Europe and the US
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What does that have to do with the point of my post? It was a hypothetical about how that wouldn't have been a good argument then or now. The point has nothing to do with how Germans were actually treated.

And TBH, the way the US treated Jewish people through all of that wasn't exactly what you'd hope, either. It was a different time, I'm well aware.
 
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#1,012
#1,012
n_huffhines said:
What does that have to do with the point of my post? It was a hypothetical about how that wouldn't have been a good argument then or now. The point has nothing to do with how Germans were actually treated.

And TBH, the way the US treated Jewish people through all of that wasn't exactly what you'd hope, either. It was a different time, I'm well aware.
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You said dont hate Israeli’s don’t hate Germans. Germans experienced extreme hate. Lynchings, homes and businesses burned, etc. you’ve seen Jewish communities harassed, Jews killed just for walking outside, a house burned, etc

Many people intertwine the people with the government
 
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#1,013
#1,013
marcusluvsvols said:
Barry Hussein Obama overthrew the Democratically elected government of Egypt so that his brother and his buddies in the M.B. could seize control. Egypt has regressed so much that there are open slave markets where humans are bought and sold like cattle. The MB was and IS a known terrorist organization. Just 1 of many countries Obama bombed without Congress's approval.
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What are you even talking about? What did Obama do?

BTW, I asked ChatGPT to assess if Egypt is doing "better" since the revolution. You seem way more negative than GDP. Why?

There are no credible reports of open slave markets, bro.


A Snapshot: Has Egypt Improved Since the 2011 Revolution?​


1. Human Development (Health, Education, Income)​



Takeaway: There have been measurable gains in health, sanitation, and overall human development since 2011.



2. Economic Performance & Stability​


  • Growth Trends:
  • Recent Economic Challenges:
  • Reforms & Investment:
    • In 2024, Egypt floated its currency and secured over $50 billion in financing, leading to a 38% devaluation of the pound.Wikipedia+1
    • By late 2024, private investment had grown significantly—up 35.4% year-on-year—and overtook public investment for the second straight quarter.Wikipedia
  • Unemployment & Poverty:
    • Though specific early data isn’t widely cited here, recent reports note that unemployment has fallen to its lowest in 14 years, and the poverty rate declined to 29.7%.Wikipedia+1

Takeaway: The economy has seen ups and downs—with meaningful growth in some periods, followed by crises. Recent reforms and foreign inflows have brought signs of stabilization, though economic fragility remains.



3. Social Progress & Human Rights​


  • Inequality & Labor Market:
  • Women’s Rights & Employment:
    • Despite strides in education—girls now attend school at comparable rates to boys—female labor force participation remains extremely low and stagnant. Studies suggest that if women worked at rates comparable to global peers, household incomes could rise by up to 25%, yet cultural and legal barriers persist.Wall Street Journal
  • Political Freedoms:
    • Many scholars argue that the revolution did not lead to substantial democratic gains. Public institutions and freedoms remain constrained, and criticism of the government is often suppressed.Arab Center Washington DCGIGA Hamburg

Takeaway: Social and political progress has been limited. While educational gains are evident, especially among women, deeper-rooted structural and rights-related issues persist.



Overall Verdict​


Yes, Egypt has made tangible improvements since the 2011 revolution—especially in key development indicators like health, sanitation, access to clean water, and certain economic metrics. However, these improvements coexist with serious ongoing challenges: economic volatility, inequality, limited political reforms, and very low female workforce participation.


To meaningfully assess “better,” it’s vital to ask: Which areas matter most to you—economic stability, political freedom, social equality, or something else? Let me know, and I can dig deeper into any specific area.
 
#1,014
#1,014
Smokey123 said:
There’s alot to unpack there. I will say I have seen Nash and eastern at least condemn/recognize Hamas being terrible, maybe not to the level others have but it was there.

I can’t speak for them nor do I know their intentions but when I see it I don’t view it as an excuse for Hamas. Hamas is evil most accept that it doesn’t have to be acknowledged after everything they do. Israel is held to a higher standard than an extremist groups

But I think when it comes to political opinions most people do have good intentions and think the stances they take are morally right, the villainizing of everyone that doesn’t think like me and they’re evil causes a lot of issues in politics (not that I’m saying u do that just in general) So I’m sure that influences my above opinion
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In my world, right and wrong are not a sliding scale based on who it is. You don’t get a break for being **** because you’re ****.
If you have nothing to say when Hamas shoots their own people then I really don’t give a **** what you think about anything Israel does. (Again obviously not you as you don’t hold back on your opinions and have proven your standards don’t change)
 
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#1,016
#1,016
Smokey123 said:
You said dont hate Israeli’s don’t hate Germans. Germans experienced extreme hate. Lynchings, homes and businesses burned, etc. you’ve seen Jewish communities harassed, Jews killed just for walking outside, a house burned, etc

Many people intertwine the people with the government
Click to expand...

Are you ****ing with me? I know what I said. I wasn't saying that's what happened. I was saying this is how we should act. In no way was I saying "this is what happened in American history." and I hope I don't have to explain that for a 3rd time.
 
#1,017
#1,017
n_huffhines said:
Are you ****ing with me? I know what I said. I wasn't saying that's what happened. I was saying this is how we should act. In no way was I saying "this is what happened in American history." and I hope I don't have to explain that for a 3rd time.
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lol what are you on. Not sure why you got so defensive, I wasn’t saying otherwise. I was making a simple statement implying innocent people should not be held accountable for the government
 
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#1,019
#1,019
Here's a fun trip down memory lane for the people who think this **** started on 10/7/2023

Just 3 years ago this August, Israel's Operation Breaking Dawn left 15 children dead. 5 children were killed in a cemetary explosion and initially the IDF blamed it on a failed rocket from Jihadists. Did that turn out to be the truth? Come on, man.

Not one of you would think that Palestinians would be justified in retaliating by killing 50x as many Israelis. You probably wouldn't even accept any kind of retaliation as justified.

www.haaretz.com

Israeli strike killed 5 Gaza kids, officials admit, after initially blaming Islamic Jihad

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
 
#1,020
#1,020
Orangeslice13 said:
In my world, right and wrong are not a sliding scale based on who it is. You don’t get a break for being shirt because you’re ******.
If you have nothing to say when Hamas shoots their own people then I really don’t give a **** what you think about anything Israel does. (Again obviously not you as you don’t hold back on your opinions and have proven your standards don’t change)
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What’s bleeped out 😂

I understand where you’re coming from but Im not saying it’s a scale and intent does matter imo
 
#1,021
#1,021
Smokey123 said:
What’s bleeped out 😂

I understand where you’re coming from but Im not saying it’s a scale and intent does matter imo
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I guess what I’m saying is ……one of the dipsticks stated that Israel had a responsibility for the people of Gaza and Hamas doesn’t. Then uses that to bitch and complain about everything Israel does while remaining silent on Hamas because they are Hamas. At the same time tries to find anything and everything to show that Israel does the same thing Hamas does.
You can’t make that level of dipshitery up.


A standard is a standard regardless of who you’re talking about
All of that to agree with you.
Intent makes all the difference in the world.
 
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#1,022
#1,022
n_huffhines said:
Here's a fun trip down memory lane for the people who think this **** started on 10/7/2023

Just 3 years ago this August, Israel's Operation Breaking Dawn left 15 children dead. 5 children were killed in a cemetary explosion and initially the IDF blamed it on a failed rocket from Jihadists. Did that turn out to be the truth? Come on, man.

Not one of you would think that Palestinians would be justified in retaliating by killing 50x as many Israelis. You probably wouldn't even accept any kind of retaliation as justified.

www.haaretz.com

Israeli strike killed 5 Gaza kids, officials admit, after initially blaming Islamic Jihad

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
Click to expand...
Oh, my, did you miss the part where the Palestinians killed 14 children during the same operation?

Self-genocide!

www.haaretz.com

The names and faces of the 36 Palestinian civilians killed during Israel’s Gaza operation

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
 
#1,024
#1,024
Orangeslice13 said:
I guess what I’m saying is ……one of the dipsticks stated that Israel had a responsibility for the people of Gaza and Hamas doesn’t. Then uses that to bitch and complain about everything Israel does while remaining silent on Hamas because they are Hamas. At the same time tries to find anything and everything to show that Israel does the same thing Hamas does.
You can’t make that level of dipshitery up.


A standard is a standard regardless of who you’re talking about
All of that to agree with you.
Intent makes all the difference in the world.
Click to expand...
Yea I remember that conversation but I don’t remember who it was with
 
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#1,025
#1,025
n_huffhines said:
Here's a fun trip down memory lane for the people who think this **** started on 10/7/2023

Just 3 years ago this August, Israel's Operation Breaking Dawn left 15 children dead. 5 children were killed in a cemetary explosion and initially the IDF blamed it on a failed rocket from Jihadists. Did that turn out to be the truth? Come on, man.

Not one of you would think that Palestinians would be justified in retaliating by killing 50x as many Israelis. You probably wouldn't even accept any kind of retaliation as justified.

www.haaretz.com

Israeli strike killed 5 Gaza kids, officials admit, after initially blaming Islamic Jihad

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
Click to expand...
Not true.
 
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