ISIS Takes Control of Mosul

#601
#601
Grand Vol said:
Air power can destroy a will to fight as has been proven time and time again.
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This is just not true, Grand Vol.

I am usually not confident enough with any subject to argue that someone is absolutely wrong on something but I will have to say you are here. I have spent a good part of my life studying 20th century war history and have been in Vietnam history the last 10 months (which is why I would have been excited if you were referring to that conflict).

You'll trump me on almost anything else Im sure but not on this subject. I will also withdraw from this argument as well because Im not in the mood to write a novel when it's so easy now a days to look things up :hi:
 
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#602
#602
WooPigSooie said:
I doubt you're refering to Operation Rolling Thunder in North Vietnam which Chuck Horner participated in.. I assume you mean that our bombing campaigns in Desert Storm broke the Iraqi will to fight us.

I would call that a special situation in that Saddam and his government was not firmly supported by the iraqi people to begin with. Those that welcomed the Americans never had a will to fight us to begin with.. those that opposed our occupation are still fighting us in and around the area.
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Rolling Thunder lasted for years. And more often than not, those targets were political in nature and the restricted areas in North Vietnam were not hit. Not a good example as it was more tactically based rather than strategic targets.

Enter Linebacker I which brought the North Vietnamese back to the peace tables in Paris. Which subsequently stalled. And enter Linebacker II.

Which brought them back to the table once again and negotiated a settlement. Through air power alone. No US troops on the ground in North Vietnam...well, no significant numbers that is. But air power alone brought them back to their senses as they couldn't sustain the amount of damage they were taking from airstrikes.
 
#603
#603
Grand Vol said:
Rolling Thunder lasted for years. And more often than not, those targets were political in nature and the restricted areas in North Vietnam were not hit. Not a good example as it was more tactically based rather than strategic targets.

Enter Linebacker I which brought the North Vietnamese back to the peace tables in Paris. Which subsequently stalled. And enter Linebacker II.

Which brought them back to the table once again and negotiated a settlement. Through air power alone. No US troops on the ground in North Vietnam...well, no significant numbers that is. But air power alone brought them back to their senses as they couldn't sustain the amount of damage they were taking from airstrikes.
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whoa! :peace2:
 
#604
#604
WooPigSooie said:
This is just not true, Grand Vol.

I am usually not confident enough with any subject to argue that someone is absolutely wrong on something but I will have to say you are here. I have spent a good part of my life studying 20th century war history and have been in Vietnam history the last 10 months (which is why I would have been excited if you were referring to that conflict).

You'll trump me on almost anything else Im sure but not on this subject. I will also withdraw from this argument as well because Im not in the mood to write a novel when it's so easy now a days to look things up :hi:
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There are several different ways of looking at this. Errors made by political leadership (Battle of Britain, Rolling Thunder) or lack of focus on militarily important targets are the key factors in whether an aerial campaign can or will break the desire to wage war.

But when you take operations like Linebacker, Desert Storm, or even the Allied bombing campaign in Germany during WWII that went after specific targets you see how the will and the ability to fight was being destroyed or brought the nations to the bargaining table.
 
#608
#608
WooPigSooie said:
Hopefully you're teaching as well at an ivy league college. If you're not, you are doing this great nation a huge disservice :bow2:
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No lol But of course the 10th grade would be considered "Ivy League" to folks from Arkansas. (sorry Hog)

Very few times in the history of the world has a single invention made such a huge difference in warfare. The bow and arrow, sturdy blades made of steel and gunpowder just to name a few. But the airplane has to be at the top of the list of inventions that's changed the entire dynamic of warfare as we know it.
 
#609
#609
Grand Vol said:
No lol But of course the 10th grade would be considered "Ivy League" to folks from Arkansas. (sorry Hog)

Very few times in the history of the world has a single invention made such a huge difference in warfare. The bow and arrow, sturdy blades made of steel and gunpowder just to name a few. But the airplane has to be at the top of the list of inventions that's changed the entire dynamic of warfare as we know it.
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Don't be apologizing to me, not from or ever lived there. Only my in-laws live in AR and I make fun of them relentlessly.
 
#610
#610
WooPigSooie said:
Bombing a populace in hopes of breaking their will to fight has only worked once in history that I can think of, off hand.. and it only partially worked then. It was when the US dropped the big bombs on Japan. Even then the Japanese people still wanted to fight and some of the Japanese brass still tried to prevent Emperor Hirohito from transmitting word of Japan's surrender to the Allies.

When London was bombed by the Germans, it did nothing but solidify the English's will to fight. Same goes for when the United States brutally fire bombed Japan over and over before the nukes.

Even back to world war one.. the german bombing of London was terrorizing. Bombing from the sky was a brand new thing. People were horrified by the silent Zeppelins flying over at night and dropping bombs at will.. but the English were more determined than ever to fight.

This is a trend throughout history. People have never been more inspired to defend their countries, homes, and families more than when the destruction of the front is brought to their own backyards.

There is no such thing as "bombing into submission". This is why the middle eastern militant has never wavered in his fight against western forces .. and I can expect he wont. Because if you kill him, you will only inspire his brother, son, or neighbor to take his place. The only way to "win" the war in the middle east is to remove their will to fight us .. and that pretty much means just leave them the hell alone.
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When the libs let us truly bomb someone into submission you can make these statements. The Germans were close. Dresden and Hamburg basically just ceased to be.
 
#615
#615
hog88 said:
Get the hell out and let them kill each other off.

But of course we would have to have a comprehensive and workable energy policy first.
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I believe Obama is hoping they kill themselves off so he doesn't have to do anything like having to make a decision on the matter.
 
#616
#616
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
I believe Obama is hoping they kill themselves off so he doesn't have to do anything like having to make a decision on the matter.
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Partially correct I guess.

Problem with Obama and his foreign, heck domestic policy also is instead of forethought and planning to manage, control and prevent crisis, they concentrate on how to spin them once they happen.
 
#620
#620
ISIS has raised the Black flag over the oil refinery in Iraq. Just what does this mean to the world now that's showing Obama's leadership is & has been going down the toilet? I guess instead of paying $5 a gallon at the pump we'll be paying $10 a gallon.
 
#621
#621
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
ISIS has raised the Black flag over the oil refinery in Iraq. Just what does this mean to the world now that's showing Obama's leadership is & has been going down the toilet? I guess instead of paying $5 a gallon at the pump we'll be paying $10 a gallon.
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It is a domestic refinery, not used for international sales.
 
#625
#625
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
ISIS has raised the Black flag over the oil refinery in Iraq. Just what does this mean to the world now that's showing Obama's leadership is & has been going down the toilet? I guess instead of paying $5 a gallon at the pump we'll be paying $10 a gallon.
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All of Iraq's oil is exported through the south, and thus far there's been virtually no impact on those shipments.

But don't let facts get in the way of your Obama hate.
 
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