Is it time for revolution?

#376
#376
OrangeWayOfLife said:
You haven't said that as much, you just of a crazy ass idea of land tax that only makes sense in a densely populated area that you refuse to acknowledge can't work in a nation such as ours.
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It certainly can work in a nation such as ours; it means that plenty of individuals that are not talented and ingenius enough to make their land productive will either pay the price or give up their land. I'm fine with that.

For someone who complains about the pussification of America and the complacency of Americans, you sure seem like you are more than willing to accept the status quo that is land being inefficiently used across the United States.
 
#377
#377
OrangeWayOfLife said:
I've spent the past 48 hours running in circles with you people. I've come to the conclusion y'all believe we should be complacent because we have it so good. There's no need to worry about a growing a federal government that has the potential of very bad things in the wrong hands, hey, if I'm not doing anything wrong, what should I worry. We should all just sit here and be thankful because there have been/are people that have had it worse. Want to search my house officer, come on in, I have no contraband. Want to take my gun, here it is, why do I need a gun if you are protecting me. Want to screen all my phone calls, I'm not involved anything illegal, go right ahead. Lunacy
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No one had said anything of the sort. You are simply making outlandish claims and got angry when called out with facts. You need better sources than a school history book and a 6hr commercial for beer
 
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#378
#378
hog88 said:
I saw that and disagree with it with every fiber of my being. What you are proposing is a severe restriction on individual ownership rights.

I would fight a revolution against anyone proposing what you are.
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I provided an argument regarding individual ownership rights. Feel free to address that argument and let me know which premise you disagree with, since it's a perfectly valid argument.
 
#379
#379
therealUT said:
I provided an argument regarding individual ownership rights. Feel free to address that argument and let me know which premise you disagree with, since it's a perfectly valid argument.
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It's not a valid argument for a free society that values individual ownership rights. It's not my responsibility or duty to use my land to produce for others. Setting property tax rates to such exorbitant levels will kill individual ownership and subjugate the populous to land barons and the government.

There is no other way to look at it.
 
#380
#380
hog88 said:
It's not a valid argument for a free society that values individual ownership rights. It's not my responsibility or duty to use my land to produce for others. Setting property tax rates to such exorbitant levels will kill individual ownership and subjugate the populous to land barons and the government.

There is no other way to look at it.
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It is a valid argument and it's a valid argument for the only way individual property rights can be reasonably and rationally understood. So, you can either simply say that your belief in what you consider to be individual property rights is irrational or you can point to a premise that you think is false. Your choice.
 
#381
#381
therealUT said:
It is a valid argument and it's a valid argument for the only way individual property rights can be reasonably and rationally understood. So, you can either simply say that your belief in what you consider to be individual property rights is irrational or you can point to a premise that you think is false. Your choice.
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We have a vast divide between us on what is reasonable and rational. Without some common ground there we can't even begin.

I for one disagree and oppose ANY property taxes at any level but since that ship has sailed property taxes should only based on services used.
 
#382
#382
utvolpj said:
No one had said anything of the sort. You are simply making outlandish claims and got angry when called out with facts. You need better sources than a school history book and a 6hr commercial for beer
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Yup, those are my only two sources of information, got me. Stating facts about the revolution of the 1700's and taking what I'm saying as an all out, burn the place down revolution is not following what I'm saying. I've simply said our current system is broke and the federal government has become an extreme over reach of power. We need sweeping changes to correct our system.
 
#383
#383
hog88 said:
We have a vast divide between us on what is reasonable and rational. Without some common ground there we can't even begin.

I for one disagree and oppose ANY property taxes at any level but since that ship has sailed property taxes should only based on services used.
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Hog, he had me to the point I couldn't even see straight yesterday. 34k in taxes on 17 acres of land. Any sort of agricultural use wouldn't even put food on the table. He absolutely can not see the flaws in his ideas. Arguing with him is bad for your health.
 
#384
#384
utvolpj said:
No one had said anything of the sort. You are simply making outlandish claims and got angry when called out with facts. You need better sources than a school history book and a 6hr commercial for beer
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This.
 
#385
#385
OrangeWayOfLife said:
Yup, those are my only two sources of information, got me. Stating facts about the revolution of the 1700's and taking what I'm saying as an all out, burn the place down revolution is not following what I'm saying. I've simply said our current system is broke and the federal government has become an extreme over reach of power. We need sweeping changes to correct our system.
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You said it's the worst it has been since the revolution. Worse than a time when human beings were paraded around in chains and sold off as livestock.
 
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#389
#389
hog88 said:
We have a vast divide between us on what is reasonable and rational. Without some common ground there we can't even begin.

I for one disagree and oppose ANY property taxes at any level but since that ship has sailed property taxes should only based on services used.
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I believe that logical validity is reasonable and rational. I provided a logically valid argument. The only way to refuse the conclusion and to remain reasonable and rational is to reject at least one of the premises. You refuse to reject any of the premises.
 
#390
#390
therealUT said:
I believe that logical validity is reasonable and rational. I provided a logically valid argument. The only way to refuse the conclusion and to remain reasonable and rational is to reject at least one of the premises. You refuse to reject any of the premises.
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Not refusing just don't have the time to go back, find it and pick it apart.
 
#392
#392
OrangeWayOfLife said:
Yup, those are my only two sources of information, got me. Stating facts about the revolution of the 1700's and taking what I'm saying as an all out, burn the place down revolution is not following what I'm saying. I've simply said our current system is broke and the federal government has become an extreme over reach of power. We need sweeping changes to correct our system.
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Then propose changes instead of just stating the obvious problem. People like you are worse than those who are complacent.
 
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#393
#393
DinkinFlicka said:
Then propose changes instead of just stating the obvious problem. People like you are worse than those who are complacent.
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I have, bring home our military and take a non interventionist stance. Establish the southern border and get 100% control of it. Shut down the federal government, with the power instilled in the states. Send every person in Washington DC home without possible re-election, or at least a 4 year ban from candidacy. Restore all federal lands, outside of DC, to their respective states. The FBI, TSA, DEA, CIA, NSA and the likes should be replaced by one agency that's minuscule in size compared to what these have become today, appoint a head over this agency that's part of the presidential cabinet. Abolish the IRS, tax reform. This should be debated and voted upon for what best suits the majority of the voting public. Retain the CDC and FEMA but with much transparent operations made easily accessible and easily interpreted by the general public. Deem that all American citizens are protected by the bill of rights , add only the electoral college to that document. Re elect a congress, once the house and senate are filled elect a new president.
 
#394
#394
OrangeWayOfLife said:
I have, bring home our military and take a non interventionist stance. Establish the southern border and get 100% control of it. Shut down the federal government, with the power instilled in the states. Send every person in Washington DC home without possible re-election, or at least a 4 year ban from candidacy. Restore all federal lands, outside of DC, to their respective states. The FBI, TSA, DEA, CIA, NSA and the likes should be replaced by one agency that's minuscule in size compared to what these have become today, appoint a head over this agency that's part of the presidential cabinet. Abolish the IRS, tax reform. This should be debated and voted upon for what best suits the majority of the voting public. Retain the CDC and FEMA but with much transparent operations made easily accessible and easily interpreted by the general public. Deem that all American citizens are protected by the bill of rights , add only the electoral college to that document. Re elect a congress, once the house and senate are filled elect a new president.
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Do you realize how much democracy you're pissing on with most of these ideas?
 
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#395
#395
therealUT said:
Here you go:

http://www.volnation.com/forum/politics/235212-time-revolution-4.html#post11188032

I'm going to go workout. Talk to you on the other side.
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Ok, that was a lot of words to say however ownership of property is obtained the government has a right to tax it at whatever rate the government deems fit.

I've got a shocker for you, property taxes exist in (I think) every state now. Which I wholeheartedly disagree with on principle. Once I as an individual pay for something no entity should require me to continue to pay or risk losing the property. I have no obligation to you or anyone else to use my property for the betterment of others. Since we do currently suffer the burden of state/local property taxes, these tax rates should be determined based on the services required of that property. Lots in a sub division should pay more per $ value than land not being used for residential purposes.
 
#396
#396
hog88 said:
Ok, that was a lot of words to say however ownership of property is obtained the government has a right to tax it at whatever rate the government deems fit.

I've got a shocker for you, property taxes exist in (I think) every state now. Which I wholeheartedly disagree with on principle. Once I as an individual pay for something no entity should require me to continue to pay or risk losing the property. I have no obligation to you or anyone else to use my property for the betterment of others. Since we do currently suffer the burden of state/local property taxes, these tax rates should be determined based on the services required of that property. Lots in a sub division should pay more per $ value than land not being used for residential purposes.
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So, which premise did you decide to reject?
 
#397
#397
therealUT said:
So, which premise did you decide to reject?
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P18. Not harming other individuals is leaving as good or better off than they would be had someone else owned the property.
P19. If property becomes owned by right due to the fact that no other individuals can complain of injustice, then in owning property by right one must leave other individuals as good or better off than they would be had someone else owned the property.
P20. The only way to ensure that one leaves one better off than any other could by owning a piece of property, is to make efficient use of said property.
P21. If property becomes owned by right due to the fact that no other individuals can complain of injustice, then one must make efficient use of the property.
P22. The only manner in which society can ensure that individual property is being used as efficiently as possible is through governmental coercion.
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.
 
#399
#399
hog88 said:
.
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You reject P18?

So, you think that if someone is worse off than they would otherwise be if not for some event x, that they are not harmed by event x?

I'd be curious to know what it is you think harm consists of.
 
#400
#400
therealUT said:
You reject P18?

So, you think that if someone is worse off than they would otherwise be if not for some event x, that they are not harmed by event x?

I'd be curious to know what it is you think harm consists of.
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Truthfully I don't think I understand P18. My interpretation is that I have some responsibility to the previous owner.
 
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