If Butch Can't...

[champyvol]

Right...he beat Steve Spurrier w/Conner Shaw & J-Clowney led GameCock team not the one this season...has been one play/fumble 2 seasons in a row away from beating Mark Richt...and one INT in the endzone and one fumble in the redzone by the players on the field from beating Florida Saturday. At some point if he is coaching these kids to hang in these games that we shouldn't be...it falls on the players to make the plays to win it on the field too.

heard same excuse with dools. sooner or later it is on the coaches.

 

[champyvol]

Who has said they don't think he is an SEC coach? I'm not arguing with you, I'd just like to see some examples.

herbie has said numerous times he is learning on the job in the SEC. it is different than cincy. fowler has also said cincy and the vols are 2 different animals. game day coach he is still learning no doubt about it.

 

[champyvol]

Right...he beat Steve Spurrier w/Conner Shaw & J-Clowney led GameCock team not the one this season...has been one play/fumble 2 seasons in a row away from beating Mark Richt...and one INT in the endzone and one fumble in the redzone by the players on the field from beating Florida Saturday. At some point if he is coaching these kids to hang in these games that we shouldn't be...it falls on the players to make the plays to win it on the field too.

also dooley beat jones, dooley almost beat lsu, almost beat north carolina. all just excuses, you have to win the games. good chance we will lose to UK again this year. that tells me the improvement that everybody is talking about is a myth. good coaches find a way to win, so far we have a lot of moral victories.

 

[T_man]

Good to hear from you Butch, but shouldn't you be figuring out how to block UTC?

Thank you Lord for the Ignore Button!

 

[kiddiedoc]

Given the state of the program, roster deficiencies, and finances when CBJ took the reigns, it is ridiculous to think he shouldn't get 4 years to rebuild. He's only coached his first real class for 5 games, and there are holes all over the field on both sides of the ball. You can't expect a bunch of freshmen to hit campus and immediately lead us to a championship.

The situation sucks, but anyone with an appreciation for reality expected this. CBJ continues to impress with recruiting, so help is on the way.

 

[PerneVedisUncool]

Win here, nobody can. Butch Jones is the real deal. I understand the irrationality of this board that comes from mainly high emotional investment to the team, but after calming down, if you seriously are questioning Butch as a coach, then you might want to root for another team.

He invests way more than even most other great coaches do. He "puts up" with the fan base and media and you can tell he is constantly trying to manage even outside things. I saw in the press conference where he even said he would have a session in the spring where he will seriously teach the media the difference in what's zone read and what's not since they along with a lot of the fan base don't seem to be able to tell the difference.

My point is Butch is a superstar coach in the making. Yes, there may be certain tweaks that need to be made, but overall, he's the guy, and I will support Butch to the bitter end because his recruiting is far superior to anything we've had in the last decade or more, and he's not even winning big yet, I love his coaching and in game management philosophies and overall, he is just extremely impressive in almost every aspect on and off the field. I see the development. I see the progress being made. I think we are an offensive line from being a ranked team and a dual threat quarterback (next year, dobbs) away from being able to fully do on offense everything that we want to do.

I know the loss at Florida hurts, but Butch isn't responsible for a decade of losses, this was his second, and he had it in the bag. Just a few costly mistakes from a young football team hurt us. No excuses, it is what it is. But I didn't see a scared team Saturday like I have seen most of the last decade. We aren't scared of anyone, just less experienced and deep than everyone. But we have to keep moving forward, and I know we'll get there. And all of this coming from a guy who did not like the Butch Jones hire at the time. He has proved me wrong. He's the guy. If he's not, no one is. Let him work, and don't think to compare other coaches' time frame of success with his. He's having to do a whole lot more than just come in and coach. He's having to clean up 5 years of suck and instill and teach a winning culture that's been lost. It's coming Volnation. I promise you that. Just hang in there. Oh, and I know, tl;dr

I'm not worried about butch. I am however worries about offensive play calling. Kentucky scored over double us on the road and we had plenty drives start at their 30 or 40. The read option is garbage. I said it last year ill say it this year. It's not an option. All it does it limit the option of the running back. And it's the only damn run we call. I would love to see some 2 tight end sets considering our lack of ability to block and maybe even a trick play? A reverse? Anything creative? One attempt at doing something to take he defense off Gaurd when your defense posts a 3 quarter shutout? But what do I know I'm just the reigning madden champion at my family reunion.

 

[sjt18]

Win here, nobody can. Butch Jones is the real deal. I understand the irrationality of this board that comes from mainly high emotional investment to the team, but after calming down, if you seriously are questioning Butch as a coach, then you might want to root for another team.

He invests way more than even most other great coaches do. He "puts up" with the fan base and media and you can tell he is constantly trying to manage even outside things. I saw in the press conference where he even said he would have a session in the spring where he will seriously teach the media the difference in what's zone read and what's not since they along with a lot of the fan base don't seem to be able to tell the difference.

My point is Butch is a superstar coach in the making. Yes, there may be certain tweaks that need to be made, but overall, he's the guy, and I will support Butch to the bitter end because his recruiting is far superior to anything we've had in the last decade or more, and he's not even winning big yet, I love his coaching and in game management philosophies and overall, he is just extremely impressive in almost every aspect on and off the field. I see the development. I see the progress being made. I think we are an offensive line from being a ranked team and a dual threat quarterback (next year, dobbs) away from being able to fully do on offense everything that we want to do.

I know the loss at Florida hurts, but Butch isn't responsible for a decade of losses, this was his second, and he had it in the bag. Just a few costly mistakes from a young football team hurt us. No excuses, it is what it is. But I didn't see a scared team Saturday like I have seen most of the last decade. We aren't scared of anyone, just less experienced and deep than everyone. But we have to keep moving forward, and I know we'll get there. And all of this coming from a guy who did not like the Butch Jones hire at the time. He has proved me wrong. He's the guy. If he's not, no one is. Let him work, and don't think to compare other coaches' time frame of success with his. He's having to do a whole lot more than just come in and coach. He's having to clean up 5 years of suck and instill and teach a winning culture that's been lost. It's coming Volnation. I promise you that. Just hang in there. Oh, and I know, tl;dr

Non sequitur. It does not follow that if Jones cannot win at UT then no one can. As was cited in another thread, Hugh Freeze is winning at Ole Miss and Mullen is winning at MSU. After several years of Big 12 futility, Sumlin has made TAM a force in the SEC. Even Mizzou with one of the worst recruiting averages has won games in the SEC against power schools.

Jones may or may not be the guy. But if he isn't, the "right" guy IS still out there. UT just can't be so "patient" with the wrong guy that they miss the right guy.

Jones should get three years to show significant progress. Any more is a waste and a detriment to the future of the program.

 

[sjt18]

Given the state of the program, roster deficiencies, and finances when CBJ took the reigns, it is ridiculous to think he shouldn't get 4 years to rebuild. He's only coached his first real class for 5 games, and there are holes all over the field on both sides of the ball. You can't expect a bunch of freshmen to hit campus and immediately lead us to a championship.

The situation sucks, but anyone with an appreciation for reality expected this. CBJ continues to impress with recruiting, so help is on the way.

Freeze inherited a very, very similar situation. He never posted a losing record and has worked his team into the top 5 nationally now. Mullen took 4 years after taking over an absolute disaster at MSU. He had a losing record the first year and none since in spite of playing in the SEC West which is unarguably the most difficult division in college football. Sumlin made his mark immediately. Arkansas is much improved. Stoops just beat USCe in his second year at Kentucky!


MOST of those situations were worse than the one Jones took over. It SHOULD NOT take 4 years before we can start expecting him to win games like last Saturday.

 

[ChattanoogaVols]

Freeze inherited a very, very similar situation. He never posted a losing record and has worked his team into the top 5 nationally now. Mullen took 4 years after taking over an absolute disaster at MSU. He had a losing record the first year and none since in spite of playing in the SEC West which is unarguably the most difficult division in college football. Sumlin made his mark immediately. Arkansas is much improved. Stoops just beat USCe in his second year at Kentucky!


MOST of those situations were worse than the one Jones took over.

You're vastly underestimating how much it hurts to lose every single starter on both lines after year one. This in itself is a big setback that Butch had absolutely no control over. None of the coaches you mentioned had to deal with this.

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

A lot of good points, but remember, his pay covers multiple areas of performance. I don't see anything wrong with the direction of the defense. However, I am only going on the quotes of this staff. "We play to strengths of our players"....let that soak in a little, ok, now Gap Read, not a strength, because of our OL's youth. Zone read, not with JW, he does not have the moves or likes tucking and running. Wide Recievers, I see as a strength, however, they need >2.7 seconds to develop a these complicated routes, but JW is averaging getting his face planted in 2.5 seconds.....So, what are we to believe.......2014 is just a long practice sechedule for 2015? Sorry, I am not buying it, I think somone is so focus on running the offense like he wants, and IS NOT, playing to the strengths of the offense.........my opinion.......flame away!

GBO!

https://rivals.yahoo.com/tennessee/football/recruiting/commitments/2012/80-71

Your whole argument seems set around the O-line. Look at how many Dooley left the school with from 2012's recruiting class. There is your answer. NONE...let that sink in.

As for playing to the strengths of the team...Butch and his staff are having a hard time doing so because of the offensive line. This is also why now we have been seeing the wildcat package...because the O-line is in such shambles...it is hard to doing anything with our offense when the O-line can't block anyone.

You're vastly underestimating how much it hurts to lose every single starter on both lines after year one. This in itself is a big setback that Butch had absolutely no control over. None of the coaches you mentioned had to deal with this.

Thank you. :hi:

 

[VonVol]

herbie has said numerous times he is learning on the job in the SEC. it is different than cincy. fowler has also said cincy and the vols are 2 different animals. game day coach he is still learning no doubt about it.

Which current SEC coaches came in with previous SEC head coaching experience? Aside from Saban and Spurrier.

 

[driscokid]

Pretty stupid in your opinion keyboard cowboy....

I never called for Cutcliffe's firing, in fact, I said Fulmer was doomed when he left for Ole Miss. An offense wasn't generally the problem with UT vs. UF....if was defense and "3rd and Chavis" which normally resulted in a first down for UF.

The offensive play calling has been predictable and non-functioning on many plays (and in games like UF). OC's should know their players strengths and weaknesses - especially those making 10x what you probably earn on an annual basis.

So how do you slow down Florida and give your line a chance?

1) Screen pass to RB after line blocks and releases (works with a TE as well)
2) Shallow crossing route to TE
3) Change the snap count (just a thought)
4) Stop with the 1-2 second RB off guard running play
5) Have your 6-3/230 lb freshman RB to "chip block" occasionally and then head for a passing lane

These are just a few from a football student and avid fan. The sad part is there are probably considerably more options not exercised and therefore not practiced.

Huh? Nobody said "You" called for Cutcliffe's firing. If you call me stupid again I'm telling the teacher. Geez..

 

[VOLCLASSOF2014]

Butch may be the guy, but just like Fulmer, his OC is causing him problems. Good coaches know when to say "when" and find a qualified replacement. Not saying B-jack needs replacing now, but at season's end......if we see more of last Saturday....then yes; he needs to go.

I have yet to understand some of these zone read/read option like plays we've been calling. I think we need to abandon that for the rest of this year with worley and just pick it back up with Dobbs next year. As frustrated with Jake as I've been, I'm willing to give him a chance to get his dual threat guy in there to see how he can do. If it's more of the same then Butch does need to make a change. Hopefully by then it won't be too late, but he's not completely bad. He has flashes of brilliance and it just seems once we get into the red zone we go full retard. Still early and I think this O-Line is really making him look bad at this point and time.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

If Butch is the right coach for UT, then he better win more than 4 games THIS season.

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

also dooley beat jones, dooley almost beat lsu, almost beat north carolina. all just excuses, you have to win the games. good chance we will lose to UK again this year. that tells me the improvement that everybody is talking about is a myth. good coaches find a way to win, so far we have a lot of moral victories.

Butch found ways to win...players made mistakes. Butch called plays that got Worley and the offense in the red zone once...and Worley threw a pic...called the plays that got Peterman in the red zone and he fumbled the ball. The ignorance you type....is pathetically comical. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

... good coaches find a way to win ...

Your mantra is lacking in depth and ultimate truths grasshopper...

 

[sjt18]

You're vastly underestimating how much it hurts to lose every single starter on both lines after year one. This in itself is a big setback that Butch had absolutely no control over. None of the coaches you mentioned had to deal with this.

ALL of them dealt with issues in one place or another that were just as significant. I am not "vastly underestimating" anything. The D is performing just fine with its youth and holdovers on the DL.

Dooley in his first year took UT to a bowl game against a difficult schedule.... after losing all 5 starters on the previous year's OL, returning NO QB's from the previous year, and having an O that was basically Poole left and Poole right for much of the early season.

As I keep pointing out, his starting 5 OL's in game 5 were Thomas, Shaw, Gooch, and two Fr.... in a game where he almost beat LSU in Death Valley. By the UNC game, Gooch was gone and a 3rd freshman was starting on the OL... yet they almost won that game.

Dooley was an abject failure as a HC... so why is it so easy to make favorable comparisons between what he managed to deal with in year one to what Jones is struggling to deal with in year two?

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

The tree is negativity....lots of you seem to just want to make out with it endlessly.

 

[champyvol]

Butch found ways to win...players made mistakes. Butch called plays that got Worley and the offense in the red zone once...and Worley threw a pic...called the plays that got Peterman in the red zone and he fumbled the ball. The ignorance you type....is pathetically comical. Thanks for the laugh.

same can be said for dooley or fulmer his last couple of years. if you are looking for ignorance look in the mirror. the comical thing is you still don't hold the coach accountable. so far he has been average at best. just like most vols i know that are pumpers, you just don't see reality. you just make excuses. you have to win games.

 

[roddo518]

Freeze inherited a very, very similar situation. He never posted a losing record and has worked his team into the top 5 nationally now. Mullen took 4 years after taking over an absolute disaster at MSU. He had a losing record the first year and none since in spite of playing in the SEC West which is unarguably the most difficult division in college football. Sumlin made his mark immediately. Arkansas is much improved. Stoops just beat USCe in his second year at Kentucky!


MOST of those situations were worse than the one Jones took over. It SHOULD NOT take 4 years before we can start expecting him to win games like last Saturday.

Let me ask you the one question that could clear your mind? Would you switch our offensive line with any of those teams today, would you? If the answer is no, then you have a point. If it is yes, at least wait until we have an oline and the other pieces in place until we start putting coaches on the chopping block.

 

[Wylo]

Let me ask you the one question that could clear your mind? Would you switch our offensive line with any of those teams today, would you? If the answer is no, then you have a point. If it is yes, at least wait until we have an oline and the other pieces in place until we start putting coaches on the chopping block.

So, we should only expect to win big games when UT had significantly better players at each position?

That's dumb, even for here.

A good coach coaches players up.
A great coach gets players to do things greater than expected.

A great recruiting/bad gameday coach brings in great classes and loses games that have no business being lost.

Which one does ut have?

It's not the first two.

 

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

same can be said for dooley or fulmer his last couple of years. if you are looking for ignorance look in the mirror. the comical thing is you still don't hold the coach accountable. so far he has been average at best. just like most vols i know that are pumpers, you just don't see reality. you just make excuses. you have to win games.

The comical ignorant thing is you and your "the world is coming to an end we didn't beat Florida"...fire our head coach 5 games into his 2nd season. Thinking we need to fire a coach for losing 3 games that he was predicted to lose anyway...yet had the team in them to win them all the way up to then end...especially the last 2. We could go on and beat South Carolina, Kentucky, Vandy, and Mizzu....finish 6-6 or 7-5...make a bowl game and you would still want Butch fired. That has become the norm with the typical "I want it now" fan like you seem to be.

 

[roddo518]

people are looking around the country and seeing some freshman on other lines and saying if they can do it with success, so should we. The difference in most of those cases are we are putting freshman in there out of necessity, and they are putting em in there because they are much better than the upper classmen. We are throwing our freshman lineman to the dogs. If we were back in the 80s and 90s, those starting freshman lineman would have been redshirted to develop strength and scheme mastery. Unfortunately, we are stealing from dl, throwing freshman in there just to field a position.

 

[roddo518]

So, we should only expect to win big games when UT had significantly better players at each position?

That's dumb, even for here.

A good coach coaches players up.
A great coach gets players to do things greater than expected.

A great recruiting/bad gameday coach brings in great classes and loses games that have no business being lost.

Which one does ut have?

It's not the first two.

Wow, where to begin. Better players do win big games. If they are close in talent, the team that has the players that make big plays, win the game. Vince Lombardi, and bear Bryant would go, damn, when looking at our ol and dl to start the season. Maybe Butch is coaching his butt off just to get us to be close in games right now. what if that is the case. He must be doing something right to get all the idiot fan base to think we have more talent than the team actually has.

 

[Wylo]

Wow, where to begin. Better players do win big games. If they are close in talent, the team that has the players that make big plays, win the game. Vince Lombardi, and bear Bryant would go, damn, when looking at our ol and dl to start the season. Maybe Butch is coaching his butt off just to get us to be close Eyein games right now. what if that is the case. He must be doing something right to get all the idiot fan base to think we have more talent than the team actually has.

Car salesman.

That's what he is right now. All talk and promises. Zero results on the field.