I respect Fulmer a little more after each game we lose

[VolArmy74]

Yes or no: would you take a 67% winning percentage over the last 15 years or not?

Majors also **** the bed multiple times. Based on your opinion on Fulmer and what he did in cherry-picked years, Majors should've been canned after 1988. He had all that momentum after 1985 and laid a goose-egg the next 3 years.

Tennessee went 10-2-1 in 1987 and stayed in the top 25 all season. That 1988 season was bad and Johnny took heat over it. But it ended with 5 wins in a row and it was his first sub .500 season in 8 years. He also beat Vanderbilt. He followed the 5-6 season with back to back SEC titles and appearances in what was the big 4 bowls at the time.

Compared to the results we had, yes I would have a taken a 67 percent winning percentage. However Fulmer's winning percentage his last 4 years was 58 percent and there was no indicator it was going to get better. Spurrier was getting South Carolina going and he had dominated Tennessee in 2008, 27-6, he also beat Tennessee in year 1 there in 2005. We know Fulmer was not going to get the better of that match up. Richt had Georgia rolling, after we'd beaten them 9 times in a row, Richt won 5 of 8 vs Fulmer. Saban's worst Alabama team destroyed Tennessee/Fulmer, that was going no where. Urban destroyed Fulmer even worse than Saban.

Johnny Majors' last 4 full seasons he won 73 percent of his games, never lost to Vandy, was at worst the #2/3 coach in the SEC at the time and had won 2 SEC titles in the 4 year window. He was fired after that run and Tennessee soon won a national title.

Auburn fired Tuberville for not getting it done even though he'd be 13-0 a few years before and they won a title soon after, LSU fired Miles for winning 66 percent of his games and won a title soon after. Florida fired Zook for winning 65 percent of his games and won two titles soon after. Alabama fired 2 coaches who had 70 percent winning percentages to get to Stallings, who won a title soon after. Then Mike Shula got fired a year removed from a 10-2 top 10 finish season, and Alabama hired Saban. Georgia fired Richt after a 10 win season and are now competing for titles and will possibly win it all this year.

We have plenty of examples of the top programs in the SEC getting rid of coaches for having a season similar or not even as bad as Fulmer in 2005. Especially when they've had some less than stellar seasons leading into it. We even did it ourselves to great effect. But somehow, Fulmer had sucked up to the right boosters enough that he was given an automatic extension for going 8-4. Allowing Fulmer to run the program deeply into the ditch cost us big time when it came time to hire a guy. Then panic hiring Dooley finished us for a while. It didn't help that Fulmer for years after kept boosters divided and used it to great effect in his 2017/18 coup of the Athletic Dept. Though he had every intention of returning as coach and not becoming AD, when that happened. Now he's making 37,000 a month to "retire" after pouring gas on the program and lighting the match.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

You can pick nits from now on. Congratulations LOL for finding a 12 year old post that was AFTER Fulmer had been fired and Coker had been dismissed. Nothing in my post there points at how many secret 2nd chances Coker supposedly got. Only that the rule was tightened after Coker... which I believe was true at the time of that post.

I remember that it was widely reported and understood that Coker had gotten more failed tests than the rules permitted. That's the actual pertinent part that you seem to want to dodge. Fulmer coddled talented players at the expense of team discipline.

I do not know why you have this Fulmer worship going on... but he was rightly fired because he was losing, the direction of the program was not good, he refused to change, and his teams/coaches were poorly led and disciplined. He was not cheated. He was not subjected to a conspiracy by older fans to prevent him from eclipsing Neyland. Nothing had to be made up or misconstrued to justify him losing his job.
his
After this much time... you should have been able to put all this in perspective and let go of it.

He was AD for just about 3 years, right? Fulmer gave uncritical loyalty to Pruitt. He ran interference even after the ridiculous losses to BYU and Ga St. They were of the same mind and cut.... and again a lack of discipline led to Fulmer being fired but this time the damage was potentially worse. In all that time... he didn't change or learn. The same tendencies that got him fired in 2008 got him fired again last year... poor discipline, undeserved and blind trust in subordinates, sacrifice of performance on the altar of misdirected loyalties.

CPF rightfully paid the price for the Pruitt tenure in it's entirety. but loyalty to his those he put in place also had the majority of the rest of the programs on the hill on the rise. He pretty quietly kept the programs in place and handed over a bunch of leadership to White that he rehired en mass not long ago. But the bell cow is the bell cow. I don't think CPF HC career would have ever been back to the heights he took it, but there is nothing that would indicate that it would have tanked to the levels it went when he was replaced without a reasonable plan in place to do so. I also don't think anybody could have duplicated his glory years as the entire landscape had shifted in the SE. He made hay when it was there to be made. Another year or two of him until a high end replacement winked back would have to have been better than what transpired. Coach hunting late in cycles has cost us dearly multiple times.

 

[sjt18]

CPF rightfully paid the price for the Pruitt tenure in it's entirety. but loyalty to his those he put in place also had the majority of the rest of the programs on the hill on the rise. He pretty quietly kept the programs in place and handed over a bunch of leadership to White that he rehired en mass not long ago. But the bell cow is the bell cow. I don't think CPF HC career would have ever been back to the heights he took it, but there is nothing that would indicate that it would have tanked to the levels it went when he was replaced without a reasonable plan in place to do so. I also don't think anybody could have duplicated his glory years as the entire landscape had shifted in the SE. He made hay when it was there to be made. Another year or two of him until a high end replacement winked back would have to have been better than what transpired. Coach hunting late in cycles has cost us dearly multiple times.

I would never argue that the way his firing and replacement were handled were competent. They weren't. The effort to replace him wasn't multiple times.

However the timing and reasoning for his termination were correct. The best possible outcome follow 2005 would have been for Fulmer to right the ship. As far as succession planning goes, he had a two year reprieve when he and Cut could have found and groomed Cut's replacement. They could have hired a management consultant to make sure the prospect was a culture and chemistry fit. Some form of pride or attachment to "old school" prevented him from trying/learning new things and methods.

I don't like that his legacy is marred. But he is the primary person to blame for that.

 

[Volizona]

well, here is my theory .. I think nationdom looks at the talent tracker on 247 for this bit of info. I mentioned once that if you dig into that for UT they still include Solomon and Harrison Bailey. Which means there could still be a couple of others that factor in to that. It also includes Milton and he as a 4-star, is typically riding the bench. Those three are a 5-star and two 4-stars who aren't factoring into the matchups each week. So as many of you on here have noted, having just a hair over 70 scholarship players makes a difference come game time. But the one I think that really misses is this, the same logic can be applied to Florida. I don't think Florida is as talented top to bottom as UT is. Florida has A LOT of players that were highly ranked that don't play at all or don't play much, several coming by way of transfer portal. Then they guys like Brenton Cox who was very highly ranked, transferred from UGA and plays but he is more of a liability most of the time than an asset. I think UT is more talented than Florida but less so than, say, maybe Kentucky for these same reasons.

I think on paper we have at least the same or better talent than the 5 teams we beat. We also have more talent than the next two teams we will play. It is also debatable, but I think we have close to the same overall talent as Pitt and Ole Miss. that’s 9 teams. The issue is depth. We are very short overall.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

I would never argue that the way his firing and replacement were handled were competent. They weren't. The effort to replace him wasn't multiple times.

However the timing and reasoning for his termination were correct. The best possible outcome follow 2005 would have been for Fulmer to right the ship. As far as succession planning goes, he had a two year reprieve when he and Cut could have found and groomed Cut's replacement. They could have hired a management consultant to make sure the prospect was a culture and chemistry fit. Some form of pride or attachment to "old school" prevented him from trying/learning new things and methods.

I don't like that his legacy is marred. But he is the primary person to blame for that.

His career ebbed and wained like most. Bottom line I grow weary of those that try and diminish his coaching career. It ended at the bottom like many do. But we often hear you are what your record says you are and his will forever be 152-52 with an NC. With a bunch of 9 or better win seasons and two loosing seasons. He was fooled by Pruitt, and it is fair to assume he did not take heed to some warnings about him. But he jumped on the get him out of here train pretty quick and did not force his removal by his bosses. Pretty clear having no residue in the Athletic Department AT ALL was probably big in the Schools strategy to not self impose a bowl ban and probably mitigate other factors, and that plus the totally open cooperation throughout is the best shot we have with the NCAA. But it is also important that he still be a welcomed alumni rather than a participant in the wrong doing, thus the layout of the presser.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

His career ebbed and wained like most. Bottom line I grow weary of those that try and diminish his coaching career. It ended at the bottom like many do. But we often hear you are what your record says you are and his will forever be 152-52 with an NC. With a bunch of 9 or better win seasons and two loosing seasons. He was fooled by Pruitt, and it is fair to assume he did not take heed to some warnings about him. But he jumped on the get him out of here train pretty quick and did not force his removal by his bosses. Pretty clear having no residue in the Athletic Department AT ALL was probably big in the Schools strategy to not self impose a bowl ban and probably mitigate other factors, and that plus the totally open cooperation throughout is the best shot we have with the NCAA. But it is also important that he still be a welcomed alumni rather than a participant in the wrong doing, thus the layout of the presser.

I don't believe he was fooled by Pruitt. Fulmer just made a bad hire.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

I don't believe he was fooled by Pruitt. Fulmer just made a bad hire.

I fear he expected a guy that grew up only 60-80 miles from where he did, with a coach as his Dad to share more values and risk aversion tendencies. I was never excited by his hire, but I did not expect the issues that surfaced since they were not evidenced at FL ST, GA or Bama.

 

[sjt18]

His career ebbed and wained like most. Bottom line I grow weary of those that try and diminish his coaching career. It ended at the bottom like many do. But we often hear you are what your record says you are and his will forever be 152-52 with an NC. With a bunch of 9 or better win seasons and two loosing seasons. He was fooled by Pruitt, and it is fair to assume he did not take heed to some warnings about him. But he jumped on the get him out of here train pretty quick and did not force his removal by his bosses. Pretty clear having no residue in the Athletic Department AT ALL was probably big in the Schools strategy to not self impose a bowl ban and probably mitigate other factors, and that plus the totally open cooperation throughout is the best shot we have with the NCAA. But it is also important that he still be a welcomed alumni rather than a participant in the wrong doing, thus the layout of the presser.

I don't think Fulmer was fooled by Pruitt in the least. My opinion is that he never accepted that the game had passed him by. He believed his philosophy on football still worked both on and off the field. He hired the coach he thought was most committed to the style of football Fulmer coached.

 

[VolArmy74]

I don't believe he was fooled by Pruitt. Fulmer just made a bad hire.

He hired someone he could control and micromanage. I don't know that Pruitt wanted to go back to a 1993 offense but Fulmer did. Phil wanted the coaching job back and had a megabooster directly contacting UT higher ups to try and get it done. When that didn't happen, he hired a completely unproven guy who was willing to give up some coaching autonomy for life changing money.

 

[Fullfillmer]

Just workin' like heck at finishing 5th/6th in the SECE.[/QUOTE]

Well played.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

He hired someone he could control and micromanage. I don't know that Pruitt wanted to go back to a 1993 offense but Fulmer did. Phil wanted the coaching job back and had a megabooster directly contacting UT higher ups to try and get it done. When that didn't happen, he hired a completely unproven guy who was willing to give up some coaching autonomy for life changing money.

Guess you got this info from the same guys that filled up this board with he was going to name himself as coach. The closest he came to that was hiring Steele for Interim duty post Pruitt. Heard speculation today that Mullen might be going after him for hisemergency opening. But that was on FineBUM and I am not going to Vegas for a bet.

 

[Delmar]

I think on paper we have at least the same or better talent than the 5 teams we beat. We also have more talent than the next two teams we will play. It is also debatable, but I think we have close to the same overall talent as Pitt and Ole Miss. that’s 9 teams. The issue is depth. We are very short overall.

Another issue is development of said talent. On paper, yes there is talent on that team (more before a bunch transferred out). But there was little to no development of that talent by Cornbread. Heupel is getting more out of it but he only had about 6 months to install and teach. Nationdumb isn’t bothering to pay attention to that but based on his posts, his attention span is a bit lacking so you’ll have to excuse him.

 

[Flathead75]

I sure miss Fulmer too! I was a trumpet player in the band and I could call our next play 9 out of 10 times and be right! Obviously defensive coordinators could too. I also miss setting up the punt!

 

[VolArmy74]

Guess you got this info from the same guys that filled up this board with he was going to name himself as coach. The closest he came to that was hiring Steele for Interim duty post Pruitt. Heard speculation today that Mullen might be going after him for hisemergency opening. But that was on FineBUM and I am not going to Vegas for a bet.

The information that he wanted the job was made public in the public records request from the KNS. Phil micromanaging is from people I've trusted for years and from knowing how he is. He moved in a few doors down from Pruitt. He was sitting in on coach's meetings and we had to self report NCAA violations because Phil was stopping by practice to do some coaching.

 

[LAVol1]

Without looking up those coaches records, I would but guessing but I think they all had a more accomplished body of work than Fulmer when they started having bad seasons. I think they all won multiple Nattys and played for quite a few more than Fulmer. Did any of them have 2 losing seasons in 4 years or was it mostly .500 seasons?

Bryant had 2 consecutive losing seasons in SEC play. Not a fair comparison with Bowden and JoPa because they had powder puff schedules as independents, but still bad seasons. Fulmer was in the SEC when it was unquestionably the toughest conference in the country. Do you not think we would have been much better off had we stuck with Fulmer for one or two more seasons vs. what transpired? I contend that IF we had allowed Fulmer to continue as HC, Clawson would have had the offense humming in year 2 or 3 and we would be much better off than we were over the last 15 years. It has taken Clawson a couple of years to get the personnel and system implemented to be successful at each stop. We didn't give him the chance. Fulmer's final season was Clawson's only year running the offense. Had Fulmer not committed to making the change to Clawson's system, I contend he would not have had a losing season in his final year. But, he was smart enough to realize he needed to make the change at the expense of that one year.

 

[beamerman]

Maybe the biggest "what if" is if he let Clawson run his offense and stay around. Great offensive mind.

That was beyond Fulmer. He needed all the credit and praise. Cut and Chavis were the only reasons he was successful and they stayed in the background and let him have the glory.

 

[TDawg]

I think on paper we have at least the same or better talent than the 5 teams we beat. We also have more talent than the next two teams we will play. It is also debatable, but I think we have close to the same overall talent as Pitt and Ole Miss. that’s 9 teams. The issue is depth. We are very short overall.

Yeah I can get behind that .. I think Kentucky gets underrated as far as actual talent on the field. I think Florida gets too much credit for talent on the roster but they aren't even using former 5-stars Bowman and Lindgard. As I said, I think you can make the case that UT is as talented as Florida if not more so. Yes, that team gave up on MuLLLLLen but even as of a couple of weeks ago, if they played UT again, I think UT wins by double digits.

 

[whobethis16]

Tennessee went 10-2-1 in 1987 and stayed in the top 25 all season. That 1988 season was bad and Johnny took heat over it. But it ended with 5 wins in a row and it was his first sub .500 season in 8 years. He also beat Vanderbilt. He followed the 5-6 season with back to back SEC titles and appearances in what was the big 4 bowls at the time.

Compared to the results we had, yes I would have a taken a 67 percent winning percentage. However Fulmer's winning percentage his last 4 years was 58 percent and there was no indicator it was going to get better. Spurrier was getting South Carolina going and he had dominated Tennessee in 2008, 27-6, he also beat Tennessee in year 1 there in 2005. We know Fulmer was not going to get the better of that match up. Richt had Georgia rolling, after we'd beaten them 9 times in a row, Richt won 5 of 8 vs Fulmer. Saban's worst Alabama team destroyed Tennessee/Fulmer, that was going no where. Urban destroyed Fulmer even worse than Saban.

Johnny Majors' last 4 full seasons he won 73 percent of his games, never lost to Vandy, was at worst the #2/3 coach in the SEC at the time and had won 2 SEC titles in the 4 year window. He was fired after that run and Tennessee soon won a national title.

Auburn fired Tuberville for not getting it done even though he'd be 13-0 a few years before and they won a title soon after, LSU fired Miles for winning 66 percent of his games and won a title soon after. Florida fired Zook for winning 65 percent of his games and won two titles soon after. Alabama fired 2 coaches who had 70 percent winning percentages to get to Stallings, who won a title soon after. Then Mike Shula got fired a year removed from a 10-2 top 10 finish season, and Alabama hired Saban. Georgia fired Richt after a 10 win season and are now competing for titles and will possibly win it all this year.

We have plenty of examples of the top programs in the SEC getting rid of coaches for having a season similar or not even as bad as Fulmer in 2005. Especially when they've had some less than stellar seasons leading into it. We even did it ourselves to great effect. But somehow, Fulmer had sucked up to the right boosters enough that he was given an automatic extension for going 8-4. Allowing Fulmer to run the program deeply into the ditch cost us big time when it came time to hire a guy. Then panic hiring Dooley finished us for a while. It didn't help that Fulmer for years after kept boosters divided and used it to great effect in his 2017/18 coup of the Athletic Dept. Though he had every intention of returning as coach and not becoming AD, when that happened. Now he's making 37,000 a month to "retire" after pouring gas on the program and lighting the match.

People clamor that Fulmer backed into the 2007 SECCG but fail to acknowledge Majors backed into it as well. 2 of Majors SEC titles came with Ls to Florida (Edit: 1 with an L to Florida, but still a worse record) and only won them because Florida was on probation both years and 1 was a 3-way tie. The man never won it outright based on win/loss record. Tell the story right.

 

[whobethis16]

You can pick nits from now on. Congratulations LOL for finding a 12 year old post that was AFTER Fulmer had been fired and Coker had been dismissed. Nothing in my post there points at how many secret 2nd chances Coker supposedly got. Only that the rule was tightened after Coker... which I believe was true at the time of that post.

I remember that it was widely reported and understood that Coker had gotten more failed tests than the rules permitted. That's the actual pertinent part that you seem to want to dodge. Fulmer coddled talented players at the expense of team discipline.

I do not know why you have this Fulmer worship going on... but he was rightly fired because he was losing, the direction of the program was not good, he refused to change, and his teams/coaches were poorly led and disciplined. He was not cheated. He was not subjected to a conspiracy by older fans to prevent him from eclipsing Neyland. Nothing had to be made up or misconstrued to justify him losing his job.

After this much time... you should have been able to put all this in perspective and let go of it.

He was AD for just about 3 years, right? Fulmer gave uncritical loyalty to Pruitt. He ran interference even after the ridiculous losses to BYU and Ga St. They were of the same mind and cut.... and again a lack of discipline led to Fulmer being fired but this time the damage was potentially worse. In all that time... he didn't change or learn. The same tendencies that got him fired in 2008 got him fired again last year... poor discipline, undeserved and blind trust in subordinates, sacrifice of performance on the altar of misdirected loyalties.

Then provide the so-called proof. I've shown your memory is faulty at best, and then you try to change the subject. Everything shows that Fulmer handled the Coker situation appropriately with suspensions, ultimatums, and eventual removal from the program. But sure, your memory is Gospel.

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

When this Thread finally ends can we take a break for awhile on this meaningless rehashing of Majors/Fulmer. Its a divisive subject and there will always be 2 sides and no agreement. No winners just wasted time arguing. I'm wasting my time even posting here.

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

Here are all the ways 2002-2008 (Fulmer's latter years) were better than 2013-2017 (Jones tenure):

• Fulmer's latter record was 57-32. Butch's was 34-29. That's a 64% win rate for Phillip, versus 54% for Butch.
• Fulmer won the SEC East twice in that time period. Butch never won the division.
• Fulmer had three (3) 10-win seasons in that window. Butch never got to double digits.
• Fulmer's worst season was 5-7. Butch achieved a team history worst, at 4-8.
• Ditto in SEC play: Fulmer's worst ever was 3-5. Butch took us to the cellar at 0-8.

There is simply no comparison between the two. Fulmer's worst years were still significantly better than the Butch Jones era, or the Dooley era, or the Pruitt era.

But he hired Pruitt, and that is a stain that will never go away.

 

[Iravolfan]

Fulmer had a losing record the year he was let go. He was no better than Butch Jones from 2002-2008

********

 

[Iravolfan]

Worst mistake UT has ever made, the day they fired Fulmer. 152-52.

 

[Iravolfan]

He was only 58 years old.

 

[Iravolfan]