Holly still can't coach.

#226
#226
Unimane said:
The idea that players just play and coaches simply bring talent is sheer idiocy. Why pay a bunch of money for coaches then? Hell, why have a coach if it's just a matter of players playing?

If anyone tells me that it's not about the coach when we get top tier talent under two different coaches, but one has 8 NCs and a bushel full of Final Fours and the other can't even make the Final Four, then I can't take you seriously.

Coaches matter. A lot. Especially on the college level.
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Agreed. Coaches matter.

Well, I must also add that the landscape was different under more successful coach. And you should be aware that the more successful coach didn't always succeed with the talent.

Coaches are salesmen; they sell the program and get talented players to buy in. Coaches are teachers; they provide information. Coaches give the individuals a team framework with opportunity and requirements for success. Coaches motivate. Coaches care.

Coaches cannot force players to learn or take the tests for them. Coaches can attempt to make adjustments based on results.


Success and failure in a team sport vests with the team as a whole. And the best teams in the world don't often go undefeated.
 
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#228
#228
1CHATTVOL said:
Agreed. Coaches matter.

Well, I must also add that the landscape was different under more successful coach. And you should be aware that the more successful coach didn't always succeed with the talent.

Coaches are salesmen; they sell the program and get talented players to buy in. Coaches are teachers; they provide information. Coaches give the individuals a team framework with opportunity and requirements for success. Coaches motivate. Coaches care.

Coaches cannot force players to learn or take the tests for them. Coaches can attempt to make adjustments based on results.


Success and failure in a team sport vests with the team as a whole. And the best teams in the world don't often go undefeated.
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No kidding not all the best teams go undefeated. However, well coached teams are quite evident and teams reflect their coaches, which is why very talented teams, like the 2016 Vol football team, can be undermined by poor coaching.

Watching the Lady Vols this year, as in every year under Warlick, is like watching a team constantly in chaos with no set rhyme or reason to their play. I've been in basketball, in some capacity for about 25 years and, when you have to start making defensive justifications like "the players are told to do things, but don't" or "the coach can't play for the players" on a consistent basis, then the problem nearly always lies with the coach. There's zero reason, in Year 6 of her coaching career with the talent of Tennessee, that she hasn't had, at least, two Final Fours.
 
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#230
#230
IPleadInsanity said:
We have decided to lower expectations rather than hold the coach accountable. That is where we are at this moment.
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We, foolishly, did it with our most recent football coach, despite some pretty hefty evidence he wasn't the guy, until the bottom fell out. Fortunately, women's basketball is more forgiving for the top teams and we still have a solid name in the game.
 
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#231
#231
Unimane said:
No kidding not all the best teams go undefeated. However, well coached teams are quite evident and teams reflect their coaches, which is why very talented teams, like the 2016 Vol football team, can be undermined by poor coaching.

Watching the Lady Vols this year, as in every year under Warlick, is like watching a team constantly in chaos with no set rhyme or reason to their play. I've been in basketball, in some capacity for about 25 years and, when you have to start making defensive justifications like "the players are told to do things, but don't" or "the coach can't play for the players" on a consistent basis, then the problem nearly always lies with the coach. There's zero reason, in Year 6 of her coaching career with the talent of Tennessee, that she hasn't had, at least, two Final Fours.
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Ok, so with your 25 years of basketball association experience and obvious vast knowledge, please name me ANY coach with 6 years as a HC that has made two final fours (hell, even 1) in the past 6 years.

I'll wait. 🐸☕
 
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#232
#232
1CHATTVOL said:
Ok, so with your 25 years of basketball association experience and obvious vast knowledge, please name me ANY coach with 6 years as a HC that has made two final fours (hell, even 1) in the past 6 years.

I'll wait. 🐸☕
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There may be some unrealistic expectations by some fans but should'nt we at least expect not to be 1-3 in our last 4 games against Alabama (perennial bottom dwellers) in SEC women's basketball? Or do we all turn a blind eye and continue to pretend there arent issues and solely continue to blame team chemistry, recruiting etc.
 
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#233
#233
Unimane said:
No kidding not all the best teams go undefeated. However, well coached teams are quite evident and teams reflect their coaches, which is why very talented teams, like the 2016 Vol football team, can be undermined by poor coaching.

Watching the Lady Vols this year, as in every year under Warlick, is like watching a team constantly in chaos with no set rhyme or reason to their play. I've been in basketball, in some capacity for about 25 years and, when you have to start making defensive justifications like "the players are told to do things, but don't" or "the coach can't play for the players" on a consistent basis, then the problem nearly always lies with the coach. There's zero reason, in Year 6 of her coaching career with the talent of Tennessee, that she hasn't had, at least, two Final Fours.
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The problem that we are having on this forum is separating Holly the person from Holly the coach. Holly the person is wonderful, friendly and likable. However, Holly the coach does not have the innate ability to be a good WCBB coach.

Anyone who questions the value of coaching to WCBB should look at the careers of Pat, Geno, Muffet, Tara and more recently, Vic Schaefer. Yes, you must have talent to win basketball games but coaching is the other half of the equation.
 
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#234
#234
TN1111 said:
There may be some unrealistic expectations by some fans but should'nt we at least expect not to be 1-3 in our last 3 games against Alabama (perennial bottom dwellers) in SEC women's basketball? Or do we all turn a blind eye and continue to pretend there arent issues and solely continue to blame team chemistry, recruiting etc.
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Agreed that we should not expect to be 1-3 in our last 4 games vs Bama. And that's on the that whole team. And that was last 2 years with DD where we had a long list of unexplainable losses.

Must be said that Bama is a bit better than the Bama of old, but still...

And Holly's teams did not lose to them before DD. In fact, they won 30 games and the SEC the year before she arrived.
 
#235
#235
Nute Gunray said:
The problem that we are having on this forum is separating Holly the person from Holly the coach. Holly the person is wonderful, friendly and likable. However, Holly the coach does not have the innate ability to be a good WCBB coach.

Anyone who questions the value of coaching to WCBB should look at the careers of Pat, Geno, Muffet, Tara and more recently, Vic Schaefer. Yes, you must have talent to win basketball games but coaching is the other half of the equation.
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If you want to say she's not great as a coach, then that's up to you. But to say she's not good is foolish. The stats don't lie. Even if you include the manic mess that was DD & friends, the record bears out a good coach.
 
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#236
#236
Unimane said:
The idea that players just play and coaches simply bring talent is sheer idiocy. Why pay a bunch of money for coaches then? Hell, why have a coach if it's just a matter of players playing?

If anyone tells me that it's not about the coach when we get top tier talent under two different coaches, but one has 8 NCs and a bushel full of Final Fours and the other can't even make the Final Four, then I can't take you seriously.

Coaches matter. A lot. Especially on the college level.
Click to expand...

All levels
 
#237
#237
1CHATTVOL said:
Ok, so with your 25 years of basketball association experience and obvious vast knowledge, please name me ANY coach with 6 years as a HC that has made two final fours (hell, even 1) in the past 6 years.

I'll wait. 🐸☕
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You mean any coach that took over for the most storied program in the sport's history and could get into any recruit's living room from day one?

Warlick didn't have to build much of anything, as do nearly all coaches, and was given the keys to the Ferrari from the get go. The talent has been there to get to the Final Four nearly every year. The coaching has not.
 
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#238
#238
1CHATTVOL said:
If you want to say she's not great as a coach, then that's up to you. But to say she's not good is foolish. The stats don't lie. Even if you include the manic mess that was DD & friends, the record bears out a good coach.
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The record bears out a team with good talent. Look at all the McD All-Americans on the team. Also, The number 1 recruiting class in WCBB. I may be foolish but I am not living in a fool's paradise. The Lady Vols have a head coaching problem.
 
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#239
#239
1CHATTVOL said:
Ok, so with your 25 years of basketball association experience and obvious vast knowledge, please name me ANY coach with 6 years as a HC that has made two final fours (hell, even 1) in the past 6 years.

I'll wait. 🐸☕
Click to expand...

Google Bill Guthridge. Holly's head coaching situation is pretty unique, but Guthridge is a very close parallel...
 
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#241
#241
NoBackBoard said:
Guthridge reached 2 Final Fours. As of now, Holly’s not in his league...try again!
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Yeah, two Final Fours in three years! After about 30 years as an assistant to Dean Smith, a legendary coach for a legendary program he took over as a first time head coach. Sound familiar? But according to 1CHATTVOL logic, it can't be done...
 
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#242
#242
Nute Gunray said:
The record bears out a team with good talent. Look at all the McD All-Americans on the team. Also, The number 1 recruiting class in WCBB. I may be foolish but I am not living in a fool's paradise. The Lady Vols have a head coaching problem.
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Yes, recruiting is skill of a great coach...not a club used to beat them into a pulp.
 
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#243
#243
Darth_Vol said:
Yeah, two Final Fours in three years! After about 30 years as an assistant to Dean Smith, a legendary coach for a legendary program he took over as a first time head coach. Sound familiar? But according to 1CHATTVOL logic, it can't be done...
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I have logic and better-than-you reading comprehension, apparently. I said a final four in the the previous 6 seasons... to approximate the vastly more competitive WBB game Holly competes in today.

Googling someone from 20 years ago in men's basketball is not even the same world.

Soooo, what you are admitting is your expectations for Holly are completely unrealistic. No new coach in WBB has EVER been to two final fours in 5 complete seasons.

I dare say that Bill Guthridge is the only MBB coach to accomplish such a feat.
 
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#245
#245
Unimane said:
You mean any coach that took over for the most storied program in the sport's history and could get into any recruit's living room from day one?

Warlick didn't have to build much of anything, as do nearly all coaches, and was given the keys to the Ferrari from the get go. The talent has been there to get to the Final Four nearly every year. The coaching has not.
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Any of 25 programs could get into any recruit's living room. Don't you see their lists of offers and lists of 10+ finalists?

Handed the keys as if she just turned 16, forgetting that she has been working for the program helping to build it for 30 years.

That line of thinking also assumes the Ferrari doesn't have any maintenance or require special skill to drive - as if anyone could just walk in here and replace a once in a lifetime coach without missing a beat.

I'd enjoy your evaluation of other schools and coaches that have had as good or better recruiting than TN that also haven't made the final four 2 out of the past 5 years.
 
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#246
#246
1CHATTVOL said:
Any of 25 programs could get into any recruit's living room. Don't you see their lists of offers and lists of 10+ finalists?

Handed the keys as if she just turned 16, forgetting that she has been working for the program helping to build it for 30 years.

That line of thinking also assumes the Ferrari doesn't have any maintenance or require special skill to drive - as if anyone could just walk in here and replace a once in a lifetime coach without missing a beat.

I'd enjoy your evaluation of other schools and coaches that have had as good or better recruiting than TN that also haven't made the final four 2 out of the past 5 years.
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Fine, she's been a great second fiddle for many years, but clearly isn't good enough for the top spot. And, no, every top 25 program can't get into any recruit's house they choose.

This post is rife with excuses, deflections and whataboutisms, not a real defense of Warlick. Other coaches haven't done something, so it's bad to expect something of Warlick. Ridiculous.

None of your silly and increasingly desperate attempts to be Warlick's white knight distract from the fact that she isn't a particularly good head coach. And, just because there are other coaches who similarly aren't up to the job here, either, doesn't mean you keep her. It means, and bear with me for this earth shattering observation, you find someone who is.
 
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#247
#247
1CHATTVOL said:
I have logic and better-than-you reading comprehension, apparently. I said a final four in the the previous 6 seasons... to approximate the vastly more competitive WBB game Holly competes in today.

Googling someone from 20 years ago in men's basketball is not even the same world.

Soooo, what you are admitting is your expectations for Holly are completely unrealistic. No new coach in WBB has EVER been to two final fours in 5 complete seasons.

I dare say that Bill Guthridge is the only MBB coach to accomplish such a feat.
Click to expand...

You didn't prove anything. You made some silly demand with a very narrow focus that allowed you to make some foolish claim of victory in your crusade for Warlick. You're asking the wrong questions, though.

Any real and honest reflection would start by realizing she is in a unique situation where she took over one of the two or three preeminent programs in her first HC job. What new coach is even remotely the same position as her?

So, contrary to your thinking, Guthridge is a great comparison, as there are so few examples of coaches taking over blue blood programs as their first job. He, as does Warlick, had a unique situation and advantage that coaches at Iowa State, South Florida or Arkansas didn't. That's why it's foolish to proclaim that any new coach in the last 6 years not making 2 Final Fours proves that expectations for Warlick are unrealistic. There are zero coaches who even were close to her in terms of the opportunities provided as a coach by simply being at Tennessee.

By the way, Guthridge isn't the only one. Joe B. Hall went to the Final Four twice in his first six years, with one title, and Mike Davis made a title game appearance in his second year as coach. Those are just off the top of my head and they were done in a much more competitive environment with the men's game than Warlick sees in the women's game.
 
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#249
#249
Unimane said:
By the way, Guthridge isn't the only one. Joe B. Hall went to the Final Four twice in his first six years, with one title, and Mike Davis made a title game appearance in his second year as coach. Those are just off the top of my head and they were done in a much more competitive environment with the men's game than Warlick sees in the women's game.
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Add Tubby Smith, who led UK to the ‘98 title in his FIRST year as head coach after Rick Pitino bolted to the Boston Celtics. Of course, he inherited a team that reached the ‘97 title game and won it all in ‘96.
 
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#250
#250
NoBackBoard said:
Add Tubby Smith, who led UK to the ‘98 title in his FIRST year as head coach after Rick Pitino bolted to the Boston Celtics. Of course, he inherited a team that reached the ‘97 title game and won it all in ‘96.
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Tubby also had been a head coach at Tulsa & Georgia for 6 years before getting the KY HC job.
 
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