Gun control debate (merged)

#26,326
#26,326
85SugarVol said:
There are some who no doubt should be confined 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives - “people” who harm children come to mind. But I don’t think they should be allowed to rot. I guess you could argue semantics there.
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Yea, I didn't really mean rot in a literal sense.
 
#26,328
#26,328
luthervol said:
I would have to look into it much more deeply to have a solid opinion, but on the surface, if he was trying to profit by helping people create illegal automatic weapons, I'm happy to see him rot in jail.
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again, what he was selling could not reasonably be used to create an illegal modification. secondly, you can legally use the product he had a template for, it just requires paperwork, so its not some forbidden tech. thirdly, a template itself is not illegal. You can easily google and find plenty of legal to share templates. The entire argument the ATF used is that you *COULD with serious modification* take this template (legal), and somehow turn it into something they consider illegal.

again, they consider the thing the template was a design for a machine gun itself. not when its fully assembled with all the other pieces and work you need to make a semi-auto full auto. they are calling this template a machine gun. Does that seem reasonable to you? two bent pieces of metal is a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF.
 
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#26,329
#26,329
LouderVol said:
again, what he was selling could not reasonably be used to create an illegal modification. secondly, you can legally use the product he had a template for, it just requires paperwork, so its not some forbidden tech. thirdly, a template itself is not illegal. You can easily google and find plenty of legal to share templates. The entire argument the ATF used is that you *COULD with serious modification* take this template (legal), and somehow turn it into something they consider illegal.

again, they consider the thing the template was a design for a machine gun itself. not when its fully assembled with all the other pieces and work you need to make a semi-auto full auto. they are calling this template a machine gun. Does that seem reasonable to you? two bent pieces of metal is a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF.
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I just do not believe your take is an accurate reflection. If it is (which I do not believe), then it is not reasonable.
 
#26,330
#26,330
luthervol said:
I just do not believe your take is an accurate reflection. If it is (which I do not believe), then it is not reasonable.
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Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”.

From the DOJ itself.

"Subsequent investigation revealed that Ervin was running an online business selling machinegun conversion devices, known as lightning links, etched into metal cards, which he referred to as Auto Key Cards. Ervin described the Auto Key Card as a “pen holder,” a “novelty,” and a “political sculpture.” A lightning link can be dropped into an otherwise legal AR-15 type firearm and convert it into a fully automatic machinegun. "

"The ATF examined the Auto Key Cards and a firearms enforcement officer was able to remove the pieces of a lightning link from an Auto Key Card using a common Dremel rotary tool in about 40 minutes. When the firearms enforcement officer placed the two pieces of the lightning link into an AR-15 type firearm, it converted the semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic. "

they are calling this card/template the link that makes it full auto. its only the link after 40 minutes of work by a trained professional. the "etching" was just enough to show the design, not enough where it could be pressed out by hand. Like I said before, they would have a case if these cards were ready to be pressed out by hand, with instructions on installation, but neither of those two conditions exist.

and from the ATF as to what counts as a machine gun.
Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms - National Firearms Act Definitions - Machinegun | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

"Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or "

thats not an "AND" statement/requirement. its an "OR". any part is considered a machine gun.

bolded is my emphasis, for a separate point, because the DOJ notes other non-exclusive uses for that part. And for the record the website selling the cards only showed them in the card configuration, not a before/after for a full auto. website has been taken down so I can't screen cap that.
 
#26,331
#26,331
LouderVol said:
Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”.

From the DOJ itself.

"Subsequent investigation revealed that Ervin was running an online business selling machinegun conversion devices, known as lightning links, etched into metal cards, which he referred to as Auto Key Cards. Ervin described the Auto Key Card as a “pen holder,” a “novelty,” and a “political sculpture.” A lightning link can be dropped into an otherwise legal AR-15 type firearm and convert it into a fully automatic machinegun. "

"The ATF examined the Auto Key Cards and a firearms enforcement officer was able to remove the pieces of a lightning link from an Auto Key Card using a common Dremel rotary tool in about 40 minutes. When the firearms enforcement officer placed the two pieces of the lightning link into an AR-15 type firearm, it converted the semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic. "

they are calling this card/template the link that makes it full auto. its only the link after 40 minutes of work by a trained professional. the "etching" was just enough to show the design, not enough where it could be pressed out by hand. Like I said before, they would have a case if these cards were ready to be pressed out by hand, with instructions on installation, but neither of those two conditions exist.

and from the ATF as to what counts as a machine gun.
Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms - National Firearms Act Definitions - Machinegun | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

"Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or "

thats not an "AND" statement/requirement. its an "OR". any part is considered a machine gun.

bolded is my emphasis, for a separate point, because the DOJ notes other non-exclusive uses for that part. And for the record the website selling the cards only showed them in the card configuration, not a before/after for a full auto. website has been taken down so I can't screen cap that.
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My take is that he was selling them illegally for the expressed intent of converting a semi into a fully automatic. If that is the case, then I am glad that he is being prosecuted.

I saw in the article that it was suggested to have the part mailed to a non-gun owning relative's address.
That may be the biggest red flag imaginable.
Was he selling these ($80-$130) so people could easily and cheaply convert their semi's to fully automatic?
If the answer is yes, then he should be prosecuted.
 
#26,332
#26,332
luthervol said:
My take is that he was selling them illegally for the expressed intent of converting a semi into a fully automatic. If that is the case, then I am glad that he is being prosecuted.

I saw in the article that it was suggested to have the part mailed to a non-gun owning relative's address.
That may be the biggest red flag imaginable.
Was he selling these ($80-$130) so people could easily and cheaply convert their semi's to fully automatic?
If the answer is yes, then he should be prosecuted.
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that's why I included the text from the DOJ. They were sold as novelty items, and pen holders. it was the DOJ/ATF that came through and put 2 and Fish together and got Pie. they are the ones claiming that is why they were sold, not the people selling them. and thats why they had to prove that you *COULD* make them into a conversion kit. the government came thru and paid an expert to turn what was being sold, into something that was illegal to sell as they were selling them.

I am extremely uncomfortable the government can jail people, for incredibly long times, if the government CAN turn something they sell into something illegal. every hardware store in this country better be on notice.
 
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#26,333
#26,333
LouderVol said:
that's why I included the text from the DOJ. They were sold as novelty items, and pen holders. it was the DOJ/ATF that came through and put 2 and Fish together and got Pie. they are the ones claiming that is why they were sold, not the people selling them. and thats why they had to prove that you *COULD* make them into a conversion kit. the government came thru and paid an expert to turn what was being sold, into something that was illegal to sell as they were selling them.

I am extremely uncomfortable the government can jail people, for incredibly long times, if the government CAN turn something they sell into something illegal. every hardware store in this country better be on notice.
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Why do you believe people were paying $80-130 and having them mailed to a non-gun owning relative?
Come on. We both know. I'm glad the DOJ/ATF don't allow such simpleminded loopholes.
 
#26,334
#26,334
luthervol said:
Why do you believe people were paying $80-130 and having them mailed to a non-gun owning relative?
Come on. We both know. I'm glad the DOJ/ATF don't allow such simpleminded loopholes.
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So you advocate prosecuting individuals based on what you think they will do, not what you can prove they’ve actually done.

How unsurprisingly Orwellian of you.
 
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#26,335
#26,335
I wonder (not really) if Luther is for prosecution of someone that simply has a CAD file on their computer of a device that could with work make a semi, full auto. I wonder (not really) if he's for prosecuting someone that has a file for 3D printing a firearm on their computer.
 
#26,336
#26,336
InVOLuntary said:
I wonder (not really) if Luther is for prosecution of someone that simply has a CAD file on their computer of a device that could with work make a semi, full auto. I wonder (not really) if he's for prosecuting someone that has a file for 3D printing a firearm on their computer.
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I have no doubt that he is. Better be careful if you own a machine shop, the ATF could come knocking on your door any day, you could possibly make something someone could, maybe use to turn their semi-auto into a fully auto weapon.
 
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#26,337
#26,337
InVOLuntary said:
I wonder (not really) if Luther is for prosecution of someone that simply has a CAD file on their computer of a device that could with work make a semi, full auto. I wonder (not really) if he's for prosecuting someone that has a file for 3D printing a firearm on their computer.
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Or the local farmers co-op that sells the ingredients needed for an ANFO device.
 
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#26,341
#26,341
So say someone has some leftover black iron pipe from doing some natural gas pipework.... urea for the lawn in the shed, and a diesel powered vehicle in the driveway. Is that considered illegal? Axin fer a friend.
 
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#26,343
#26,343
luthervol said:
Why do you believe people were paying $80-130 and having them mailed to a non-gun owning relative?
Come on. We both know. I'm glad the DOJ/ATF don't allow such simpleminded loopholes.
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again you could turn the blank metal panels into the parts in question in 40 minutes with a dremel. The design on there didn't change a thing.

they bought it because it was a novelty item, and Americans are terribly consumeristic.
I have at least a dozen items not particularly related to any specific tie-in to my life within that price range. I saw it and thought it was cool. Kinda like owning the Anarchist Cook Book and some of those other "how to survive when crap hits the fan" items, doesn't have to mean anything. thats what makes America great. You want to punish people for free speech. which is why I keep saying your antics are far more damaging than just to the 2A. Heck call it art and people will buy an "invisible sculpture" for 18k. Artist sells invisible sculpture for over $18K according to you those people should go to jail because clearly that is a front for something illegal.

you always assume guilt and work backwards from there, Mr "Prove your innocence".
 
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#26,344
#26,344
LouderVol said:
again you could turn the blank metal panels into the parts in question in 40 minutes with a dremel. The design on there didn't change a thing.

they bought it because it was a novelty item, and Americans are terribly consumeristic.
I have at least a dozen items not particularly related to any specific tie-in to my life within that price range. I saw it and thought it was cool. Kinda like owning the Anarchist Cook Book and some of those other "how to survive when crap hits the fan" items, doesn't have to mean anything. thats what makes America great. You want to punish people for free speech. which is why I keep saying your antics are far more damaging than just to the 2A. Heck call it art and people will buy an "invisible sculpture" for 18k. Artist sells invisible sculpture for over $18K according to you those people should go to jail because clearly that is a front for something illegal.

you always assume guilt and work backwards from there, Mr "Prove your innocence".
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That's simply a ridiculous stance. He knew what he was selling and why it was being purchased. He deserved to be prosecuted.
 
#26,347
#26,347
luthervol said:
That's simply a ridiculous stance. He knew what he was selling and why it was being purchased. He deserved to be prosecuted.
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how is it ridiculous? Its the truth. If he sold a blank metal card, exact same as he was selling, just with no design, the same expert could take it, use a Dremel, and turn it into these lightning links. and under the ATF that blank metal card would count as a machine gun.
 
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#26,348
#26,348
C-south said:
So ridiculous the “experts” at the ATF had to try multiple times before they got one to work. Maybe they had to deviate from what the template actually was.
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its unbelievable the government is allowed to take private property, openly make significant modifications to it, and then claim it is NOW illegal, and hold you accountable for selling an illegal item THEY made. and Luther of course doesn't bat an eye because big brother can do no wrong.
 
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#26,350
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