Gun control debate (merged)

[LouderVol]

It's because their ultimate goal is total disarmament. They want the ARs, then they'll want anything that holds more than 10 rounds. Then they'll want all semi autos, then they'll want all hand guns. If we're lucky we'll get to keep muzzle loaders and single shot shotguns.

This is how I know they aren't serious about fixing the problem. ARs are not the problem. ARs despite being "so deadly" kill far far fewer people than handguns do. so if they actually cared about the problem, people dying, they would start with handguns, not ARs. but you are right, they don't care about people dying, they care about the guns only. which is why they go after the scary black ones, no racism there on their part at all, nope none; and ignore the functionally identical ones with wood furniture.

 

[lawgator1]

Your last statement is a lie. There're at least two things in common. Mentally unstable nutjobs and guns. And guns don't fire on their own.

Well, we can't seem to predict or deal with mental illness as a cause, can we?

 

[kiddiedoc]

Well, we can't seem to predict or deal with mental illness as a cause, can we?

Why deal with it when we can celebrate it or medicate it?

 

[Weezer]

Well, we can't seem to predict or deal with mental illness as a cause, can we?

We could, or at least do a much better job of it, but we refuse to address mental health for the problem that it is. People would rather bitch about guns.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

I am not a back the blue type of guy; and I think its an incredibly bad idea to make sure the government (cops) are the only ones with guns. Like the worst idea possible. but not because of individual shootings. just look at how we have treated disarmed populations in this country.

I can't criticize the bulk of your above statement, because it is the truth. We do differ one thing. To the dismay of some, I am a back the blue guy. However, to the dismay of others, my definition of back to the blue is distinct from theirs. I'm all for cops whose focus is on what they're supposed to be as opposed to what they are. They need to aggressively weed out the misfits, and focus on those motivated by the law instead of bigotry, and all that comes with that. We need police forces to prevent rampaged anarchy. But not when officers who are themselves an innate part of such anarchy. https://truthout.org/articles/us-cops-are-treating-white-militias-as-heavily-armed-friendlies/

Native Americans? Genocide, constant uprooting.
Africans, slavery, oppression, experimentation. Gun control as we know it got its start in Jim Crowe laws, and it hasn't left Jim Crowe behind.
Japanese getting interred, Chinese and Irish slave labor.
Denying people guns has been the number one way to ensure atrocities happen. I believe its a definite case of be careful what you wish for.

That's true. Inarguably true. However, I suspect you misread my posts, as I don't advocate total disarmament. I don't believe regular citizens need assault and assault type guns. Such tools exist for the sole purpose of hunting humans. A hand gun for self-defense, a rifle such as the thirty aught six for hunting game, sure. Allowing Whites to parade around with guns, yet killing, arresting, and jailing minorities for exercising the same right is by default, disarming those citizens. It's this hypocrisy I despise.

and no I am not having fun that people with absolutely no clue how firearms work, are pushing measures and laws that are, and will be, incredibly ineffective. And instead of admitting that the past measures haven't worked, and trying something new. The solution is to double down on what is already not working. I don't enjoy that the anti 2A have to resort to straight up fallacies, that its legal to just kill people, to have an argument; and try to justify denying people their rights just so they can "do something", even if that something is ineffective. I do not think its fun that we take such short sited views to just do something that we completely ignore the ramifications and that our quick measures now are just making things worse. These proposed gun laws are just creating tomorrow's problems (Gun Free Zones). I do not think its fun that any attempt to say maybe we do something about the people side of the problem is met with derision and cries of just wanting to blast people with my guns.

Again, we agree more than you realize. Where we likely differ is my disdain for the gun lobbyists-bought lawmakers. They lack the will and/or integrity to take the necessary steps to alleviate the current increasing gun violence in the nation. They only care about staying in office and maintaining their para$itic niche with their gullible advocates, bigot factions, greedy gun lobbyists, and such allow. Now, as for the fun stuff, cops and gun rights people have been caught on record saying and singing about having fun killing citizens, especially Blacks. In Florida, the cops even had life-sized photos of formerly jailed Black males who were acquitted, served their time, and even found to be innocent and wrongfully jailed. For what? To practice face shots. This group just happened to be caught, it actually occurs in other police departments as well, just better hidden. So yes, there are folks who enjoy shooting citizens, and their numbers, though hidden, aren't just a few bad apples as some want to insist.
Indeed, we had a Black former Vols player in Knoxville threatened. It was a traffic stop, and the officer threatened to shoot him, get this, in the FACE. Again, the joy of doing such things is more widespread than people want to admit.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ment-used-black-mug-shots-for-target-practice

 

[DC_Vol]

Just gonna go to the bank and withdraw some money and have a nice d…. nope

Another shooting. Another public place we’ll have to "harden".

Police response time 3 mins. And he was able to kill and/or maim 15-20 people in that time. I guarantee with a handgun it would’ve been half that, maybe.

Oh well, just more sacrifices in our fight to have military grade weapons.

cop in critical condition who had been on the job for 10 days. Welcome aboard rookie.

The gall of some of y’all. This generation "Z" is growing up all over the world. No civilized nation is having this issue except this one. It’s the folks who raised them valuing their expectation to not have 2A rights inconvenienced in the slightest over others’ rights to walk around murder free.

The first thing needs to be special permitting for these ARs or just none at all. It would cut down casualties in these events even if it wouldn’t prevent them.

But y’all just keep deflecting from the issue, while everyone else just hopes they can somehow deflect bullets.

Clowns.

This is a very lazy response that demonstrates no desire to discuss the obvious elephant in the room.

 

[lawgator1]

We could, or at least do a much better job of it, but we refuse to address mental health for the problem that it is. People would rather bitch about guns.

We should do both.

We should make obtaining a gun moderately difficult so that only those trained and stable have them; and we should make access to mental health help a lot easier.

 

[Weezer]

We should do both.

We should make obtaining a gun moderately difficult so that only those trained and stable have them; and we should make access to mental health help a lot easier.

We should focus on mental health, because that's the real problem. Look at the other half of the equation. We don't just have crazies going out and killing people they perceive as having wronged them in some way. We also have kids killing themselves because they have no idea how to handle being "bullied". There is a mental health crisis in this country and we're doing almost nothing to address it. Like I said, people would rather bitch about guns than address the real problem because guns make much better political fodder than mental health. And the last thing this WH wants is a focus on mental health. They don't want that spotlight on Joe Biden.

When guns start taking themselves to public places and shooting people, then I'll agree we have a gun problem. Until then, the problem is people.

 

[LouderVol]

Again, we agree more than you realize. Where we likely differ is my disdain for the gun lobbyists-bought lawmakers. They lack the will and/or integrity to take the necessary steps to alleviate the current increasing gun violence in the nation. They only care about staying in office and maintaining their para$itic niche with their gullible advocates, bigot factions, greedy gun lobbyists, and such allow. Now, as for the fun stuff, cops and gun rights people have been caught on record saying and singing about having fun killing citizens, especially Blacks. In Florida, the cops even had life-sized photos of formerly jailed Black males who were acquitted, served their time, and even found to be innocent and wrongfully jailed. For what? To practice face shots. This group just happened to be caught, it actually occurs in other police departments as well, just better hidden. So yes, there are folks who enjoy shooting citizens, and their numbers, though hidden, aren't just a few bad apples as some want to insist.
Indeed, we had a Black former Vols player in Knoxville threatened. It was a traffic stop, and the officer threatened to shoot him, get this, in the FACE. Again, the joy of doing such things is more widespread than people want to admit.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ment-used-black-mug-shots-for-target-practice

I have had a cop threaten to shoot me. Never specifically in the face though. I have had them draw guns on me twice. one was an arsehole cop he was the one who threatened me, other was a misunderstanding that got worked out no harm no foul.

i am not disagreeing there are bad cops, there are bad everythings. the cops have too much power because they are backed by the government who thrives on the idea of disarming its population to make THEIR lives easier, not our lives safer.

again "assault" weapons, made up term by those who don't know the first thing about guns, aren't the problem. handguns kill AT LEAST 6,000 people every year. rifles, which include your "assault weapons" have at MOST killed 500 people. and the last full set of data I was able to find from the FBI had that number below 300. the reason it seems like assault weapons are the problem is because of sampling bias. we hear about pretty much every rifle attack no matter the target or the one doing it. we only hear about handgun attacks when it hits a "high value" target, or the perp meets some "othering" criteria that the media can sell. people THINK the problem is a lot worse than it is because thats how the media portrays it, but if you look at trends the problem is actually getting better.

there are perfectly legitimate reasons to own what you call an assault weapon. Feral hogs are a growing issue across most of the nation. your bolt action 30.06 isn't going to get enough lead down range to effectively cull their numbers. A pistol, unless you are rocking a DE, isn't going to have the stopping power you need. you need something that is lighter and more maneuverable than a bolt action, something that is at least semi automatic, something that fires a large/fast enough projectile to get to the critical parts of a 500lb hog charging you.

they also make fantastic personal/home defense weapons, and can easily be set up to not overpenetrate walls any more than a pistol or shot gun would. Any bullet is going to go through multiple layers of drywall, even bird shot or a .22, in the distances of a home invader. and with the various attachments you can easily add you get several huge layers of functionality that a pistol can't easily accommodate.

the fact that you claim there are NO legitimate reason to own a semi-automatic rifle proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Vol8188]

Just gonna go to the bank and withdraw some money and have a nice d…. nope

Another shooting. Another public place we’ll have to "harden".

Police response time 3 mins. And he was able to kill and/or maim 15-20 people in that time. I guarantee with a handgun it would’ve been half that, maybe.

Oh well, just more sacrifices in our fight to have military grade weapons.

cop in critical condition who had been on the job for 10 days. Welcome aboard rookie.

The gall of some of y’all. This generation "Z" is growing up all over the world. No civilized nation is having this issue except this one. It’s the folks who raised them valuing their expectation to not have 2A rights inconvenienced in the slightest over others’ rights to walk around murder free.

The first thing needs to be special permitting for these ARs or just none at all. It would cut down casualties in these events even if it wouldn’t prevent them.

But y’all just keep deflecting from the issue, while everyone else just hopes they can somehow deflect bullets.

Clowns.

My 30.06 is a military grade weapon. So is my 9mm. Sounds like you don’t know what you’re talking about. Perhaps you’re the clown?

 

[WoodsmanVol]

I have had a cop threaten to shoot me. Never specifically in the face though. I have had them draw guns on me twice. one was an arsehole cop he was the one who threatened me, other was a misunderstanding that got worked out no harm no foul.

i am not disagreeing there are bad cops, there are bad everythings. the cops have too much power because they are backed by the government who thrives on the idea of disarming its population to make THEIR lives easier, not our lives safer.

again "assault" weapons, made up term by those who don't know the first thing about guns, aren't the problem. handguns kill AT LEAST 6,000 people every year. rifles, which include your "assault weapons" have at MOST killed 500 people. and the last full set of data I was able to find from the FBI had that number below 300. the reason it seems like assault weapons are the problem is because of sampling bias. we hear about pretty much every rifle attack no matter the target or the one doing it. we only hear about handgun attacks when it hits a "high value" target, or the perp meets some "othering" criteria that the media can sell. people THINK the problem is a lot worse than it is because thats how the media portrays it, but if you look at trends the problem is actually getting better.

there are perfectly legitimate reasons to own what you call an assault weapon. Feral hogs are a growing issue across most of the nation. your bolt action 30.06 isn't going to get enough lead down range to effectively cull their numbers. A pistol, unless you are rocking a DE, isn't going to have the stopping power you need. you need something that is lighter and more maneuverable than a bolt action, something that is at least semi automatic, something that fires a large/fast enough projectile to get to the critical parts of a 500lb hog charging you.

they also make fantastic personal/home defense weapons, and can easily be set up to not overpenetrate walls any more than a pistol or shot gun would. Any bullet is going to go through multiple layers of drywall, even bird shot or a .22, in the distances of a home invader. and with the various attachments you can easily add you get several huge layers of functionality that a pistol can't easily accommodate.

the fact that you claim there are NO legitimate reason to own a semi-automatic rifle proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

Well, in that case, I vote for hand grenades, and RPGs too. I think I'm going shopping today as well. Quality Machine Guns For Sale - MACHINE GUNS USA

 

[lawgator1]

We should focus on mental health, because that's the real problem. Look at the other half of the equation. We don't just have crazies going out and killing people they perceive as having wronged them in some way. We also have kids killing themselves because they have no idea how to handle being "bullied". There is a mental health crisis in this country and we're doing almost nothing to address it. Like I said, people would rather bitch about guns than address the real problem because guns make much better political fodder than mental health. And the last thing this WH wants is a focus on mental health. They don't want that spotlight on Joe Biden.

When guns start taking themselves to public places and shooting people, then I'll agree we have a gun problem. Until then, the problem is people.

Not all mass shooters would be so easily detected, surely you must agree.

Its early but all I have heard regarding this most recent shooter was that he learned he was going to be fired. How many people get fired every day, week, month, or year in this country? Now we have to screen them all post haste?

Far more efficient to restrict guns in the first instance.

 

[Weezer]

Not all mass shooters would be so easily detected, surely you must agree.

Its early but all I have heard regarding this most recent shooter was that he learned he was going to be fired. How many people get fired every day, week, month, or year in this country? Now we have to screen them all post haste?

Far more efficient to restrict guns in the first instance.

Probably easier to restrict cars than to trust people not to drink and drive.

 

[Vol8188]

Well, in that case, I vote for hand grenades, and RPGs too. I think I'm going shopping today as well. Quality Machine Guns For Sale - MACHINE GUNS USA

Is your argument that because we’ve banned RPGs that you can make any gun law you wish?

 

[Vol8188]

I have had a cop threaten to shoot me. Never specifically in the face though. I have had them draw guns on me twice. one was an arsehole cop he was the one who threatened me, other was a misunderstanding that got worked out no harm no foul.

i am not disagreeing there are bad cops, there are bad everythings. the cops have too much power because they are backed by the government who thrives on the idea of disarming its population to make THEIR lives easier, not our lives safer.

again "assault" weapons, made up term by those who don't know the first thing about guns, aren't the problem. handguns kill AT LEAST 6,000 people every year. rifles, which include your "assault weapons" have at MOST killed 500 people. and the last full set of data I was able to find from the FBI had that number below 300. the reason it seems like assault weapons are the problem is because of sampling bias. we hear about pretty much every rifle attack no matter the target or the one doing it. we only hear about handgun attacks when it hits a "high value" target, or the perp meets some "othering" criteria that the media can sell. people THINK the problem is a lot worse than it is because thats how the media portrays it, but if you look at trends the problem is actually getting better.

there are perfectly legitimate reasons to own what you call an assault weapon. Feral hogs are a growing issue across most of the nation. your bolt action 30.06 isn't going to get enough lead down range to effectively cull their numbers. A pistol, unless you are rocking a DE, isn't going to have the stopping power you need. you need something that is lighter and more maneuverable than a bolt action, something that is at least semi automatic, something that fires a large/fast enough projectile to get to the critical parts of a 500lb hog charging you.

they also make fantastic personal/home defense weapons, and can easily be set up to not overpenetrate walls any more than a pistol or shot gun would. Any bullet is going to go through multiple layers of drywall, even bird shot or a .22, in the distances of a home invader. and with the various attachments you can easily add you get several huge layers of functionality that a pistol can't easily accommodate.

the fact that you claim there are NO legitimate reason to own a semi-automatic rifle proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

The fact that not all cops are heroes is too often forgotten on the right

 

[hog88]

Not all mass shooters would be so easily detected, surely you must agree.

Its early but all I have heard regarding this most recent shooter was that he learned he was going to be fired. How many people get fired every day, week, month, or year in this country? Now we have to screen them all post haste?

Far more efficient to restrict guns in the first instance.

Ah yes, let's punish the innocent to keep the guilty from having their rights infringed.

 

[Vol8188]

Not all mass shooters would be so easily detected, surely you must agree.

Its early but all I have heard regarding this most recent shooter was that he learned he was going to be fired. How many people get fired every day, week, month, or year in this country? Now we have to screen them all post haste?

Far more efficient to restrict guns in the first instance.

Which specific gun restriction would have stopped this

 

[Vol8188]

We should do both.

We should make obtaining a gun moderately difficult so that only those trained and stable have them; and we should make access to mental health help a lot easier.

Just to be clear, gun training would not have prevented this right?

So I have to ask, do you ever care about the bodies that keep stacking up since none of your suggestions would’ve helped?

 

[LadyVolette]

We should focus on mental health, because that's the real problem. Look at the other half of the equation. We don't just have crazies going out and killing people they perceive as having wronged them in some way. We also have kids killing themselves because they have no idea how to handle being "bullied". There is a mental health crisis in this country and we're doing almost nothing to address it. Like I said, people would rather bitch about guns than address the real problem because guns make much better political fodder than mental health. And the last thing this WH wants is a focus on mental health. They don't want that spotlight on Joe Biden.

When guns start taking themselves to public places and shooting people, then I'll agree we have a gun problem. Until then, the problem is people.

I agree, there is a serious problem.. between our mismanagement of mental health, social media gone amuck, our leadership setting really bad examples on both sides.. our chickens have kind of come home to roost now.. plus we have 333 million people now and counting.. odds are good there are going to be people with screws loose

 

[Vol8188]

Had multiple concussions in HS and had to wear a helmet when he played basketball because of the concussions.

If I had to wear a helmet while playing basketball with my friends, I’d commit mass murder too. It would be the only way to deal with the level of mockery those savages would present.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Is your argument that because we’ve banned RPGs that you can make any gun law you wish?

That's the rightists mantra. It goes like this:

Holy State or Holy King--
Or Holy People's Will--
Have no truck with the senseless thing.
Order the guns and kill!

 

[LadyVolette]

Why deal with it when we can celebrate it or medicate it?

This

 

[LadyVolette]

Honestly at this point, wouldn't be against it.

Were these two whackos on drugs that would show up in a toxicology screen? Do we include screening for antipsychotics, sedatives, etc? Psych patients are also notorious for not taking their medications lol (or just the ones they like)

 

[lawgator1]

Which specific gun restriction would have stopped this

I don't know enough about the facts yet of this case, they are not yet published, to fully answer that. I did see that he used an AR 15 or AR 15 style of weapon. Now, I have learned a lot here on the board thanks to the gun enthusiasts and such a weapon is not unless altered an automatic weapon. It is not, in the truest sense of the phrase, an "assault rifle." It is also just one manufacturer, though the style is frequently mimicked.

But an AR 15 or gun after its style has also been used in many other mass shootings, i.e. Uvalde. I am convinced that because it has appeared so many times in movies and pop culture that there is an attraction to it, a "coolness" factor, which is appealing to those who want to kill many, quickly.

We should look into that and how we can make such weapons either more cumbersome and not effective, or really, really, REALLY, require a deep dive on someone wanting to purchase one.

 

[jp1]

If all of the guns left the face of the earth today, you still have people wanting to kill others. Address the problem.