Gun control debate (merged)

#23,226
#23,226
Volatility said:
It would be even lower if we included only Asians or Jewish people, but America is diverse and these studies include all races in America.

Guns are indeed a factor, but not the only factor. Most people don’t wake up and decide to start shootings at a mall/school/grocery store. Why does America have so many people who want to do this?
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So you're saying this problem is isolated to only one race? White, Asian, and Jewish Americans all have great access to guns and yet extremely low homicide rates. If shootings like this occur so often, why aren't they represented in the data? Why would the data show lower homicide rates than the EU and Canada (closer to even with Canada, 50% lower than the EU), given how many more guns we have?

And if guns aren't the only factor, why is it the only factor you care about?
 
#23,227
#23,227
hndog609 said:
As a macro I understand your point. I think the argument he's presenting is that when you have the better part of 200 million people with the kind of firearm access being discussed and having the homicide rate cited it questions the "guns are the problem" stance. If it really was firearm access in and of itself wouldn't any demographic be representative in homicide rate?

Anyway, that's what I've taken his argument to mean.
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Especially the white Americans given they own the majority of all guns in the US
 
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#23,228
#23,228
Vol8188 said:
So you're saying this problem is isolated to only one race? White, Asian, and Jewish Americans all have great access to guns and yet extremely low homicide rates. If shootings like this occur so often, why aren't they represented in the data? Why would the data show lower homicide rates than the EU and Canada (closer to even with Canada, 50% lower than the EU), given how many more guns we have?

And if guns aren't the only factor, why is it the only factor you care about?
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No, I’m saying that since America has higher gun related deaths and murders compared to peer nations. If we were an all white nation, who knows if we would be having this discussion. But we aren’t, so I’m not understanding why we’re referencing one race’s homicide rate when we’re a multi racial country.

Also I never said it was the only factor I care about. But we’re in a thread called Gun Control Debate, so I’m zoning in on that factor. It’s one variable that I think can be modified to increase/decrease homicide rates.
 
#23,229
#23,229
Vol8188 said:
Especially the white Americans given they own the majority of all guns in the US
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The 200m I cited was specifically the white population per the last census. (actually 190 something if the difference mattered to anyone) That's a LOT of people with great access to firearms that should be doing a lot of murdering at a higher rate is what I've made of your argument.
 
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#23,230
#23,230
K-town Vol Fan said:
6k is vast wealth? Damn I'm rich and didn't even know it.


Like I said, credit card, maybe stole a parents credit card. Seems most likely and easiest.
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You are completely clueless. Facts matter in investigations. He didn’t use his dad’s credit card for $6-8k when his dad didn’t even have custody of him and lived in house with no roof covering it and rats and roaches inside while living on a mattress.

It’s most likely stolen stuff from elsewhere or cartel related and that plus the ignoring his violent and criminal actions as a minor that could’ve prevented this shooting
 
#23,231
#23,231
Volatility said:
No, I’m saying that since America has higher gun related deaths and murders compared to peer nations. If we were an all white nation, who knows if we would be having this discussion. But we aren’t, so I’m not understanding why we’re referencing one race’s homicide rate when we’re a multi racial country.

Also I never said it was the only factor I care about. But we’re in a thread called Gun Control Debate, so I’m zoning in on that factor. It’s one variable that I think can be modified to increase/decrease homicide rates.
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I'm referencing race for the same reason you're comparing different nations. You're saying "Country A has more guns and more homicides than Country B, so clearly it's the guns". I'm saying if that were true, you would not see an increase in homicide rates among only 1 race. You would see that increase across the board. Yet you don't. Even more concerningly for your argument, the group that owns the most guns has the lowest homicide rates.

If guns are a variable that can be used to decrease homicide rates, why does the group with the most guns (white Americans) have such low homicide rates? Lower than the EU and Canada.
 
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#23,232
#23,232
Volatility said:
Let’s cross that bridge if that ever happens.



It is rather high compared to other first world countries: Homicide rate by country, around the world | TheGlobalEconomy.com

We’re also doing abysmal when it comes to gun related deaths in first world countries: Gun Violence in the US Far Exceeds Levels in Other Rich Nations
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The majority are suicides and gang members shooting each other. Anything else is online in comparison with violence and homicides in other countries
 
#23,233
#23,233
Volatility said:
Unless there’s a plan to remove non-whites from America, homicides from all races are going to be included in these statistics, which show that we are way more violent compared to other first world countries.
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So we are right back to the Jim Crow start of gun control. Cant fix the minorities, so we just take away their rights to protect society.
 
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#23,234
#23,234
Vol8188 said:
I'm referencing race for the same reason you're comparing different nations. You're saying "Country A has more guns and more homicides than Country B, so clearly it's the guns". I'm saying if that were true, you would not see an increase in homicide rates among only 1 race. You would see that increase across the board. Yet you don't. Even more concerningly for your argument, the group that owns the most guns has the lowest homicide rates.

If guns are a variable that can be used to decrease homicide rates, why does the group with the most guns (white Americans) have such low homicide rates? Lower than the EU and Canada.
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I’m not saying it’s (only )the guns, I’m saying it’s one of the factors into why we have more homicides, school shootings, mall shootings etc. compared to other first world countries. We also have a different cultures/demographics/political systems etc but this isn’t a thread about those factors.
 
#23,237
#23,237
Volatility said:
I’m not saying it’s (only )the guns, I’m saying it’s one of the factors into why we have more homicides, school shootings, mall shootings etc. compared to other first world countries. We also have a different cultures/demographics/political systems etc but this isn’t a thread about those factors.
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I’ve never heard anyone on the left provide another factor. So now I’m curious. There’s obviously no correlation between guns and homicides, so what’re the other factors
 
#23,239
#23,239
Vol8188 said:
I’ve never heard anyone on the left provide another factor. So now I’m curious. There’s obviously no correlation between guns and homicides, so what’re the other factors
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Well for starters, I’m not on the left. Again, accounting for all races, we clearly have more gun deaths/school shootings compared to other first world nations.

In addition to having more access to guns compared to European countries, American culture is way more individualistic. Our country is pro-illegal immigration (cheap labor for republicans, free votes for democrats). Most EU countries are either keen on keeping it white or keen on importing Muslims. America has only two serious choices in politics whereas other countries have more. We’re also much more inclined to use our tax dollars on military instead of ourselves.

That was just off the top of my head.
 
#23,240
#23,240
Volatility said:
Well for starters, I’m not on the left. Again, accounting for all races, we clearly have more gun deaths/school shootings compared to other first world nations.

In addition to having more access to guns compared to European countries, American culture is way more individualistic. Our country is pro-illegal immigration (cheap labor for republicans, free votes for democrats). Most EU countries are either keen on keeping it white or keen on importing Muslims. America has only two serious choices in politics whereas other countries have more. We’re also much more inclined to use our tax dollars on military instead of ourselves.

That was just off the top of my head.
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Accounting for all races is a weird way to put it given the massive differences in homicide rates. The black homicide rate is over ten time the white despite lesser access to guns. For example their felon and incarceration rates are way higher, prohibiting their ownership.

Are you saying being whiter and less Muslim makes them safer?

You named a bunch of differences but I fail to see the direct correlation with those differences and violence
 
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#23,243
#23,243
Volatility said:
No, I’m saying that since America has higher gun related deaths and murders compared to peer nations. If we were an all white nation, who knows if we would be having this discussion. But we aren’t, so I’m not understanding why we’re referencing one race’s homicide rate when we’re a multi racial country.

Also I never said it was the only factor I care about. But we’re in a thread called Gun Control Debate, so I’m zoning in on that factor. It’s one variable that I think can be modified to increase/decrease homicide rates.
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We would but be having it with far fewer homicides, and violent crime generally.

The last time I spreadsheeted the FBI UCR stats was 2014, the murder group rate per capita, number of murders, percentage of total murders for:

White offenders was rate of 1.3 - 2499 murders/30.4% of total
Black rate of 10 - 4224 murders/51.3% of total
Hisp/Latino rate of 2.3 - 1308 murders/15.9% of total

The three groups accounted for 8,031 murders with other groups being statistically insignificant. The U.S. murder rate was 4.4

The Canadian murder rate in 2014 was 1.46. With no visible (significant) population of black and Hisp/Lats, Canada's rate doesn't really improve with a similar comparison. Canadian Asians are by far the largest racial minority and like American Asians commit little murder or crime generally. With a population of 38 million, they had 743 murders in 2020. Scale that population up to the U.S. and they'd have had 6,550 murders in 2020.
 
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#23,244
#23,244
Vol8188 said:
Accounting for all races is a weird way to put it given the massive differences in homicide rates. The black homicide rate is over ten time the white despite lesser access to guns. For example their felon and incarceration rates are way higher, prohibiting their ownership.

Are you saying being whiter and less Muslim makes them safer?

You named a bunch of differences but I fail to see the direct correlation with those differences and violence
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Did I say there wasn’t a difference in homicide by race?
85SugarVol said:
Um, no.

At least you were somewhat honest.

You know full well it is the handguns that are the holy grail for those that favor confiscation.

I will not yield a single inch.
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Where did I say anything about confiscating handguns?
 
#23,245
#23,245
Volatility said:
Did I say there wasn’t a difference in homicide by race?
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No you didn't. But you did say this "Again, accounting for all races, we clearly have more gun deaths/school shootings compared to other first world nations.". And if we say elevated homicide rates across all groups you'd have a point that maybe the reason is gun related. But we don't see that at all. We only see it within one ethnic group, which would imply the issue is not one of guns.

You also didn't answer my other question. Are you saying being whiter is why the EU has less homicides than America as a whole?
 
#23,247
#23,247
Volatility said:
Who said anything about taking away rights?
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Shall not be infringed upon doesnt include a "unless we really want to infringe" clause. As long as the 2A is held to a different standard than other rights, you are taking it away. As soon as you introduce additional requirements you are creating a second class of citizen by denying or limiting some rights.
 
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#23,249
#23,249
Volatility said:
I don’t think it can be prevented entirely, but that’s not the goal anyway. I do think better laws and controls can reduce the risk of psychos getting their hands on powerful weapons.
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Better than the laws we have in Chicago or LA ?
 
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