Gun control debate (merged)

#20,152
#20,152
LouderVol said:
The same restrictions. The government should never hold different standards for different rights. As we see that is how they will deny rights to some and not others. It's funny how the inequality of gun laws never come up in a nation so focused on equality.

And no I can not keep nor bear the arms you/the government wont let me buy. And that goes beyond your purchase limit.

Until or unless you can accept all the government enforced restrictions on guns on all your other rights, they are absolutely infringements. There is no way to argue otherwise.
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But you can keep and bear arms which is what was guaranteed.
 
#20,154
#20,154
luthervol said:
Not at all, because you are factoring out the most economically and socially disadvantaged which is where you will find the highest homicide rate IN EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY.
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Except I’m not. I’m factoring in the white population which is the largest recipient of welfare. Yet commits a minority of the violent crimes.

You keep saying you have data showing I’m wrong. Do you intend on presenting it?
 
#20,155
#20,155
Vol8188 said:
Except I’m not. I’m factoring in the white population which is the largest recipient of welfare. Yet commits a minority of the violent crimes.

You keep saying you have data showing I’m wrong. Do you intend on presenting it?
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Except you are. Do this: Compare the lowest economic 20% of our nation to the lowest 20% of any comparable nation.
Or, compare the rate of our black population who are in the lowest 20% to the rate of our black population not in the lowest 20%
I can tell you guys are positively giddy over you mistaken belief that this is a race issue, but before you allow yourselves to break into convulsive giggles, check out the data on broken down by economic groups.

Or stay wrapped in your bubble of comfort provided by your "it's a black problem" nonsense.
 
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#20,156
#20,156
luthervol said:
My argument is solid. Our country has 3 to 4 times the homicide rate of comparable countries.
Do the comparisons by economic levels between the countries.
Do the comparisons by urban vs rural between the countries.
Do the comparisons by race between the countries.
You will find that the homicide rate is much higher in the US in each and every one of those comparisons.

Your argument is sounding like "we don't have a gun problem, we have a black problem". I would be careful it I were you.
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Why does he need to be careful? We cannot have an open honest discussion about it?

when I have looked at the numbers, if one excludes homicides committed by blacks, the US rate fell into the median of European countries. It has been a couple of years since doing that and I cannot recall if I used FBI or CDC numbers. If we want to argue the cause of that, good. But arguing blacks do not skew US homicide rates I believe to be a fruitless exercise.
 
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#20,158
#20,158
luthervol said:
Except you are. Do this: Compare the lowest economic 20% of our nation to the lowest 20% of any comparable nation.
Or, compare the rate of our black population who are in the lowest 20% to the rate of our black population not in the lowest 20%
I can tell you guys are positively giddy over you mistaken belief that this is a race issue, but before you allow yourselves to break into convulsive giggles, check out the data on broken down by economic groups.

Or stay wrapped in your bubble of comfort provided by your "it's a black problem" nonsense.
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If this data exists provide it. You keep asking for a very specific data set. I can tell you data in the US shows black homicide rates are still much higher even when adjusted for economic status. That's why they represent only 25% of the food stamp population but the majority of homicides.

You keep saying I'm comparing non-equivalent populations yet I've given you plenty of examples of US states with comparable demographics to Canada and higher poverty rates. Why are you dismissing those?
 
#20,159
#20,159
GroverCleveland said:
Why does he need to be careful? We cannot have an open honest discussion about it?

when I have looked at the numbers, if one excludes homicides committed by blacks, the US rate fell into the median of European countries. It has been a couple of years since doing that and I cannot recall if I used FBI or CDC numbers. If we want to argue the cause of that, good. But arguing blacks do not skew US homicide rates I believe to be a fruitless exercise.
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I provided him numbers earlier if you want to find it. It was around 1.2 per 100k. I've also seen it as high as 2.2 per 100k. But either way, it's like you're saying. It's on par with Europe, despite broad access to guns and much higher population density than some of these countries he wants to list (Canada and Australia would be prime examples).
 
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#20,160
#20,160
LouderVol said:
You were the one who brought up stastics.

@Vol8188 would you mind doing a weighted average to make the demographics used for our violent crime rate similar to this vague nation luther wants to refer too. Let's use Sweden, that seems to be a popular one.

So if they are 95% white, we count 95% of white violent crime, and then we count the 5% of ther various "other", or whatever it may be.

You know for luther to actually have stastics. Since that is what he is going with this time.
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If we use the white rate of 1.2 and a black rate of 15.5 (which is higher than if we were to add the Hispanic rate of 3-4) and do 95%+5% we would get a weighted rate of (1.2*.95+15.5*0.05) 1.14+0.775=1.915 which is still within his range.

@luthervol is this better?

So where is your proof that we have a gun problem given the homicide rates appear to be on part?
 
#20,161
#20,161
Vol8188 said:
If this data exists provide it. You keep asking for a very specific data set. I can tell you data in the US shows black homicide rates are still much higher even when adjusted for economic status. That's why they represent only 25% of the food stamp population but the majority of homicides.

You keep saying I'm comparing non-equivalent populations yet I've given you plenty of examples of US states with comparable demographics to Canada and higher poverty rates. Why are you dismissing those?
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Go find it.
 
#20,162
#20,162
luthervol said:
Go find it.
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You told me it was out there and that it specifically proved your argument. You directly stated this data would show across the board that we have higher rates. So now that data doesn't exist? You have the burden to show guns are a problem. You've failed.

Also why are you discounting my examples of US states with similar demographics to Canada and higher poverty than Canada?
 
#20,163
#20,163
Vol8188 said:
If we use the white rate of 1.2 and a black rate of 15.5 (which is higher than if we were to add the Hispanic rate of 3-4) and do 95%+5% we would get a weighted rate of (1.2*.95+15.5*0.05) 1.14+0.775=1.915 which is still within his range.

@luthervol is this better?

So where is your proof that we have a gun problem given the homicide rates appear to be on part?
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Better but still not factoring in the impact of economic and social disadvantage.
 
#20,164
#20,164
luthervol said:
Better but still not factoring in the impact of economic and social disadvantage.
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Obviously it is factoring that in. How is counting both the white and the black population not factoring in economic and social disadvantage?

Also can you provide any of this data you claim exists that shows white and black violent crime rates are the same across the economic spectrum? I'm assuming no, because we both know that's not the truth.
 
#20,165
#20,165
Vol8188 said:
You told me it was out there and that it specifically proved your argument. You directly stated this data would show across the board that we have higher rates. So now that data doesn't exist? You have the burden to show guns are a problem. You've failed.

Also why are you discounting my examples of US states with similar demographics to Canada and higher poverty than Canada?
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This is all I have time for at the moment. If you wish to challenge your beliefs, do a little digging.
If you find comfort in your beliefs, close your eyes and cling to them.
Income Inequality’s Most Disturbing Side Effect: Homicide
Income Inequality’s Most Disturbing Side Effect: Homicide
Where financial disparities are greatest, the murder rate tends to be high

Inequality—the gap between a society's richest and poorest—predicts murder rates better than any other variable, according to Martin Daly, a professor emeritus of psychology at McMaster University in Ontario, who has studied this connection for decades. It is more tightly tied to murder than straightforward poverty, for example, or drug abuse. And research conducted for the World Bank finds that both between and within countries, about half the variance in murder rates can be accounted for by looking at the most common measure of inequality, which is known as the Gini coefficient.
 
#20,166
#20,166
TN Ribs said:
This is exactly what the GOP has done with restrictive voting laws - all emotion and lies,, no data whatsoever to support their position. Clearly, they support owning weapons over participating in democracy - spineless and pathetic.
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I say we make voting the same as acquiring a gun. You with me? Provide ID, pay $, background check.
 
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#20,167
#20,167
luthervol said:
Are you serious??
You are comparing per capita numbers of a segment of the population of our country to per capita numbers for the total population of other counties.
You are not comparing equal populations.
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Most of the countries you want to compare us to are predominately white. Like 95%+. The weighted average isnt going to change much.

In most countries the crime rate amongst/by minroties is higher than the majority. So it's not a unique US/gun issue.
 
#20,168
#20,168
LouderVol said:
Most of the countries you want to compare us to are predominately white. Like 95%+. The weighted average isnt going to change much.

In most countries the crime rate amongst/by minroties is higher than the majority. So it's not a unique US/gun issue.
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You're ignoring the whole point that it is not race. It is inequality, both real and perceived, both economically and socially.
 
#20,169
#20,169
luthervol said:
This is all I have time for at the moment. If you wish to challenge your beliefs, do a little digging.
If you find comfort in your beliefs, close your eyes and cling to them.
Income Inequality’s Most Disturbing Side Effect: Homicide
Income Inequality’s Most Disturbing Side Effect: Homicide
Where financial disparities are greatest, the murder rate tends to be high

Inequality—the gap between a society's richest and poorest—predicts murder rates better than any other variable, according to Martin Daly, a professor emeritus of psychology at McMaster University in Ontario, who has studied this connection for decades. It is more tightly tied to murder than straightforward poverty, for example, or drug abuse. And research conducted for the World Bank finds that both between and within countries, about half the variance in murder rates can be accounted for by looking at the most common measure of inequality, which is known as the Gini coefficient.
Click to expand...

I've seen that claim before. The more you read, the more nonsense it becomes. For one he doesn't actually compare it race when claiming it's the best predictor but only to measures of poverty and drug abuse. The other issue is that most murders in this country are no between people of varying economic status but rather poor black people killing other poor black people.

Even your own article seems to state that this one specific professor is the only person pushing this idea.

The other obvious issue with this claim is that the poorest areas (not the areas with the most inequality) have the highest homicide rates.

Do you intend on defending your earlier claims that white and black Americans of low income commit homicide at similar rates? If they do not, your claims of guns and poverty being the problem seem to really be falling apart fast.
 
#20,170
#20,170
luthervol said:
What are you talking about? I'm not disputing any numbers.
I've said multiple times that mass shootings are more popular now.
I thought we were moving the debate to why that is and what could/should be done about it.

And why are you guys so quick to call me a liar? I have my own theory, but it's not pretty.
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Daily shootings don't seem to bother you. Instead of only addressing the mass shootings and going all in there, why not address the day to day violence. Mass shootings happen each weekend in Chicago to the tune of 40+, but it is irrelevant because it didn't all happen by one gun.
 
#20,172
#20,172
GroverCleveland said:
Why does he need to be careful? We cannot have an open honest discussion about it?

when I have looked at the numbers, if one excludes homicides committed by blacks, the US rate fell into the median of European countries. It has been a couple of years since doing that and I cannot recall if I used FBI or CDC numbers. If we want to argue the cause of that, good. But arguing blacks do not skew US homicide rates I believe to be a fruitless exercise.
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It’s just not a racist conversation. It’s cultural. And there’s a problem with a segment of that culture. It needs to be discussed. What’s the actual problem and how do we solve it?
 
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#20,173
#20,173
Orangeslice13 said:
It’s just not a racist conversation. It’s cultural. And there’s a problem with a segment of that culture. It needs to be discussed. What’s the actual problem and how do we solve it?
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100%. If this inequity was in the opposite direction and the white population was committing the majority of homicide it would talked about daily on the news and it would be called racist to support gun control because they would tell you they need guns to defend them against all these crazy crackers

If we refuse to discuss this problem, we will never be able to address it. If it were as simple as guns, the white homicide rate would be higher than that of these “comparable” countries he wants to use
 
#20,175
#20,175
Vol8188 said:
100%. If this inequity was in the opposite direction and the white population was committing the majority of homicide it would talked about daily on the news and it would be called racist to support gun control because they would tell you they need guns to defend them against all these crazy crackers

If we refuse to discuss this problem, we will never be able to address it. If it were as simple as guns, the white homicide rate would be higher than that of these “comparable” countries he wants to use
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It would be a literal war and bloodbath If it were as simple as guns.
 
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