Gun control debate (merged)

#16,426
#16,426
Orangeslice13 said:
There was a time when unions prevented all those things. Give me an example of any of those issues that are possible today without the union
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Unions protect against that from happening again. When was the last time citizens in the US had to form militias to protect their own property or life from their own government?
 
#16,429
#16,429
OHvol40 said:
Because you’re giving up your personal liberty and trusting it to the government. What do you mean how so? It’s almost rhetorical.
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Uhhhh
No I’m not.
I see the union as (at this moment in time) largely unnecessary. The law currently protects the employee as well as any union. I would not argue that unions should be illegal though. Things change and that need could return even if it’s extremely unlikely.
Once again should employers be required to join a union to work in union shop companies and should they be required to own a gun to live in the US?
 
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#16,430
#16,430
OHvol40 said:
Unions protect against that from happening again. When was the last time citizens in the US had to form militias to protect their own property or life from their own government?
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April 5, 2014 was the last time Americans had to defend themselves against a tyrannical US government.
And then after the standoff won in court.
Bundy standoff - Wikipedia

edit: so you are saying the union is unnecessary beyond being an insurance policy?
 
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#16,433
#16,433
Orangeslice13 said:
Uhhhh
No I’m not.
I see the union as (at this moment in time) largely unnecessary. The law currently protects the employee as well as any union. I would not argue that unions should be illegal though. Things change and that need could return even if it’s extremely unlikely.
Once again should employers be required to join a union to work in union shop companies and should they be required to own a gun to live in the US?
Click to expand...
Requiring people to utilize firearms or unions and defending their right to exist are two different things.
 
#16,434
#16,434
Orangeslice13 said:
April 5, 2014 was the last time Americans had to defend themselves against a tyrannical US government.
And then after the standoff won in court.
Bundy standoff - Wikipedia

edit: so you are saying the union is unnecessary beyond being an insurance policy?
Click to expand...
Currently, unions are largely a firewall... but in an era of increasing monopolistic tendencies, an important firewall.
 
#16,438
#16,438
Orangeslice13 said:
Uhhhh
No I’m not.
I see the union as (at this moment in time) largely unnecessary. The law currently protects the employee as well as any union. I would not argue that unions should be illegal though. Things change and that need could return even if it’s extremely unlikely.
Once again should employers be required to join a union to work in union shop companies and should they be required to own a gun to live in the US?
Click to expand...
Interesting take. "Laws 'protect' employees" what does that mean? And those laws that 'protect' employees define a minimum standard. A standard that the vast majority of employers will not exceed unless they are forced. One way of forcing that increased minimum is thru collective bargaining. Don't get me wrong, I dislike unions and I am in one. But I know for a fact that were I not, my pay/benefits probably wouldn't have improved in decades. Even with a union, the company uses bankruptcy to gut contracts so that is no panacea either. Those "laws" favor management and the corporations way more than they do the worker. Other than establishing a floor, they don't do much.
 
#16,439
#16,439
SpaceCoastVol said:
Interesting take. "Laws 'protect' employees" what does that mean? And those laws that 'protect' employees define a minimum standard. A standard that the vast majority of employers will not exceed unless they are forced. One way of forcing that increased minimum is thru collective bargaining. Don't get me wrong, I dislike unions and I am in one. But I know for a fact that were I not, my pay/benefits probably wouldn't have improved in decades. Even with a union, the company uses bankruptcy to gut contracts so that is no panacea either. Those "laws" favor management and the corporations way more than they do the worker. Other than establishing a floor, they don't do much.
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I’d agree with almost everything you said.
I’m not sure the union is that helpful though.

For example when I put work out for bid I always give the union guys a opportunity. The non union guys will give me a quote for the work and we sign a contract. The union bid almost always be something along the lines of “we will send 3 guys at —$ per hour and send you a bill when done. I don’t hire out subs without knowing what it will cost me. The union guys flat out refuse to give you a price. That’s what they never win my work.

I have had the dipsticks protest a job site for “unfair labor practices “ all because I hired someone else. Had a nice sign and everything.
I asked the guy sitting at the sign if he was in the union. Nope, just making 11$ an hour to sit there
 
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#16,440
#16,440
Orangeslice13 said:
I’d agree with almost everything you said.
I’m not sure the union is that helpful though.

For example when I put work out for bid I always give the union guys a opportunity. The non union guys will give me a quote for the work and we sign a contract. The union bid almost always be something along the lines of “we will send 3 guys at —$ per hour and send you a bill when done. I don’t hire out subs without knowing what it will cost me. The union guys flat out refuse to give you a price. That’s what they never win my work.

I have had the dipsticks protest a job site for “unfair labor practices “ all because I hired someone else. Had a nice sign and everything.
I asked the guy sitting at the sign if he was in the union. Nope, just making 11$ an hour to sit there
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We could discuss the pros/cons/ of this until the cows return to Capistrano. I guess perhaps it depends on the industry too. What you described is the bloated government of a union and on that we agree. When those have been allowed to grow into that kind of entity they become parisitic and actually feed on themselves (although they don't realize it). They raise their standard of living to the point they price themselves out of work. Sound familiar?
 
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#16,441
#16,441
OHvol40 said:
And so do 2A advocates, that’s not the point.
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How?

Are you conflating the NRA with 2A supporters?

Cause I think most 2A supporters here would have your "down with tryanny" a distant fourth or so on their list of pro-2A things. Somewhere after: they are fun to shoot, I needed a new boat anchor, cause I can, and mind your own business.
 
#16,444
#16,444
I worked in a union plant for 35 years as a salaried non-union employee and have mixed feelings about unions. In my early days I hated the union because they tried to dictate to me what I could do or not. It was stupid stuff like you can't look at a computer screen unless you have an electrician with you. As the months turned into years and I got to know the guys they were okay with whatever I did.
I know I got better benefits because of the union, a pension, a 6% dollar for dollar match and essentially free medical care. Once a billionaire hedge fund manager took a position in my company and decided he could rape the salaried employees he did. He split the company into pieces but the one thing he couldn't break was the union and to this day they still have their pension, 401k match and $20 a week healthcare with no deductibles and copays.
After dealing with an evil billionaire I'm pro union!
 
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