Gun control debate (merged)

#14,802
#14,802
hndog609 said:
No. If someone believes or disbelieves any of the things you cite it's just that, a belief unless the actual truths/facts supporting the contention hold up under their own merit. Again, in some instances an absolute truth/fact is impossible to establish. All else is twaddle or people that can't separate the definitions of "truth" and "belief". (either by ignorance or bias)
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So "Reagan was an evil man" and "Jeffrey Dahmer was an evil man" are equally opinionated statements?
Or are you saying that some opinions are more "truthful" because they can they can be better supported by facts?

If it's the second, then opinions lie on a continuum.
If it's the first, they you're nuts.
 
#14,804
#14,804
luthervol said:
So "Reagan was an evil man" and "Jeffrey Dahmer was an evil man" are equally opinionated statements?
Or are you saying that some opinions are more "truthful" because they can they can be better supported by facts?

If it's the second, then opinions lie on a continuum.
If it's the first, they you're nuts.
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You're screwing up your own continuum argument. (which is amusing) Whatever I believe about "person X" is what I believe. You might have a very different belief about that person. There are plenty of people out there that are full blown heroes in the minds of some and villains in the minds of others. I know you know this. Can much better arguments be made about person X from one side or the other? Sure. Some can be pretty hard to contradict given the vettable supporting information.

It's simple...stop using the word "truth" that holds it merit in how much someone does or does not believe on said subject. Hell, EVERYBODY can believe a certain thing and it not be true. (happens in the sciences all the time)
 
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#14,805
#14,805
luthervol said:
So "Reagan was an evil man" and "Jeffrey Dahmer was an evil man" are equally opinionated statements?
Or are you saying that some opinions are more "truthful" because they can they can be better supported by facts?

If it's the second, then opinions lie on a continuum.
If it's the first, they you're nuts.
Click to expand...
Opinions may or may not be supported by facts.
At this point, you are talking about judgments.
I'm not sure if judgments fall on the opinion continuum or not.
 
#14,806
#14,806
hndog609 said:
You're screwing up your own continuum argument. (which is amusing) Whatever I believe about "person X" is what I believe. You might have a very different belief about that person. There are plenty of people out there that are full blown heroes in the minds of some and villains in the minds of others. I know you know this. Can much better arguments be made about person X from one side or the other? Sure. Some can be pretty hard to contradict given the vettable supporting information.

It's simple...stop using the word "truth" that holds it merit in how much someone does or does not believe on said subject. Hell, EVERYBODY can believe a certain thing and it not be true. (happens in the sciences all the time)
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There is no better example of that than Trump.
Your last sentence is my whole point. An opinion that can be better supported by information is stronger than an opinion that cannot. The opinion that the earth is spherical is a more truth based opinion than the one that states the earth is flat.
In fact, most people would view the opinion that the earth is spherical to have moved so far along the opinion continuum that it is now accepted as fact. However, the people who disagree still strongly contend it is only opinion.
 
#14,807
#14,807
luthervol said:
There is no better example of that than Trump.
Your last sentence is my whole point. An opinion that can be better supported by information is stronger than an opinion that cannot. The opinion that the earth is spherical is a more truth based opinion than the one that states the earth is flat.
In fact, most people would view the opinion that the earth is spherical to have moved so far along the opinion continuum that it is now accepted as fact. However, the people who disagree still strongly contend it is only opinion.
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No, the whole point is "personal truth" is garbage. (literally, go back and look where this started) Don't use it again.

The Earth being round isn't an opinion because the means of arriving at that conclusion have (and for some time now) been not only demonstrable but actually observably vetted. That some hold a different belief is irrelevant. (remember 2+2=purple?)

Dealing with opinions about people is much harder. It VERY often comes down to what people personally value, which is pretty much definitionally made up of personal feelings. In fact some can be openly contradictory. Person X saved a busload of kids from going off a bridge but he's pretty nasty to his wife. Hero or villain? (that's not an actual question, just pointing out the problems with people and absolutes)
 
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#14,809
#14,809
hndog609 said:
No, the whole point is "personal truth" is garbage. (literally, go back and look where this started) Don't use it again.

The Earth being round isn't an opinion because the means of arriving at that conclusion have (and for some time now) been not only demonstrable but actually observably vetted. That some hold a different belief is irrelevant. (remember 2+2=purple?)

Dealing with opinions about people is much harder. It VERY often comes down to what people personally value, which is pretty much definitionally made up of personal feelings. In fact some can be openly contradictory. Person X saved a busload of kids from going off a bridge but he's pretty nasty to his wife. Hero or villain? (that's not an actual question, just pointing out the problems with people and absolutes)
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Absolutes????? Seriously? I'm the least likely person in the PF to deal in absolutes.
The hero or villain question is the perfect example. As is the spherical or flat earth question.
As science progressed the spherical earth question moved along the opinion continuum.
While some said, "the facts are in, it is no longer opinion." Others said, "not so fast, look at how often science is wrong and how do we know this is not some special interest BS funded by the ship building industry?"
It's the same with climate change / global warming.
The guy who was convinced that the earth was spherical based on his knowledge of the evidence before many of his counterparts, would claim it was fact/truth while he's budies would scoff and say it was merely his opinion. He would counter with, "suit yourself, I'll call it by personal truth."
I differentiate my opinions. When one becomes fact based in my opinion but not in the opinions of others, it moves into what a call a personal truth.
There are to many guns in the US.
It is far to easy for guns that were purchased legally to illegally fall into the wrong hands.
The level of gun violence in the US is a national disgrace.
There are rational and reasonable actions that could be taken that would address those three facts.
Those are truths that many do not recognize as truths but call opinions.
So in the meantime, I'll categorize them as my personal truths.
 
#14,811
#14,811
luthervol said:
Absolutes????? Seriously? I'm the least likely person in the PF to deal in absolutes.
The hero or villain question is the perfect example. As is the spherical or flat earth question.
As science progressed the spherical earth question moved along the opinion continuum.
While some said, "the facts are in, it is no longer opinion." Others said, "not so fast, look at how often science is wrong and how do we know this is not some special interest BS funded by the ship building industry?"
It's the same with climate change / global warming.
The guy who was convinced that the earth was spherical based on his knowledge of the evidence before many of his counterparts, would claim it was fact/truth while he's budies would scoff and say it was merely his opinion. He would counter with, "suit yourself, I'll call it by personal truth."
I differentiate my opinions. When one becomes fact based in my opinion but not in the opinions of others, it moves into what a call a personal truth.
There are to many guns in the US.
It is far to easy for guns that were purchased legally to illegally fall into the wrong hands.
The level of gun violence in the US is a national disgrace.
There are rational and reasonable actions that could be taken that would address those three facts.
Those are truths that many do not recognize as truths but call opinions.
So in the meantime, I'll categorize them as my personal truths.
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What a wall of voodoo. (bonus points for anyone that had Mexican Radio start playing in their head) It's a waste of time with you at this point so I'm leaving with this:

Believe what you want. Every time you use the phrase "personal truth" you deserve to be savagely mocked.
 
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#14,812
#14,812
StarRaider said:
o'biden picks a moron for AR14 czar

Beto O’Rourke blames GOP ‘death cult mentality’ for rise in US violence

how come i never get invited to these death cult meetings?
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There it is again . Yet another liberal pushing blame off on the republicans for urban city violence and murder spikes , while they are simultaneously calling to defund and dismantle the PDs. Zero self responsibility for running though cities. It really does boggle the mind . “Death cult “.. that idiot just ran for POTUS LOL.
 
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#14,813
#14,813
hndog609 said:
What a wall of voodoo. (bonus points for anyone that had Mexican Radio start playing in their head) It's a waste of time with you at this point so I'm leaving with this:

Believe what you want. Every time you use the phrase "personal truth" you deserve to be savagely mocked.
Click to expand...
I'll see if I can come up with another term for those things that one knows to be true yet others insist are nothing but opinion.

Any suggestions?
I thought personal truth was pretty good; it was pretty unoffensive and avoided calling out the other person as ignorant.
 
#14,814
#14,814
luthervol said:
I'll see if I can come up with another term for those things that one knows to be true yet others insist are nothing but opinion.

Any suggestions?
I thought personal truth was pretty good; it was pretty unoffensive and avoided calling out the other person as ignorant.
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If only there was a way to change the 2a . So you could trample peoples rights to adjust them to your personal truths . Oh wait there is . Just make an amendment.
 
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#14,815
#14,815
0nelilreb said:
If only there was a way to change the 2a . So you could trample peoples rights to adjust them to your personal truths . Oh wait there is . Just make an amendment.
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I prefer the fluid interpretation angle. Well regulated being rational and reasonable.
Don't worry, it will not happen soon. We still have a lot of needless bloodshed to endure.
 
#14,816
#14,816
luthervol said:
I'll see if I can come up with another term for those things that one knows to be true yet others insist are nothing but opinion.

Any suggestions?
I thought personal truth was pretty good; it was pretty unoffensive and avoided calling out the other person as ignorant.
Click to expand...

Belief/Faith is a direction you might look.

And it doesnt need to be religious.
 
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#14,818
#14,818
luthervol said:
I prefer the fluid interpretation angle. Well regulated being rational and reasonable.
Don't worry, it will not happen soon. We still have a lot of needless bloodshed to endure.
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Because removing guns from civilians saves sooo many lives.

Our government saved so many soldiers lives by removing guns from the natives while bouncing them from reservation to reservation. Breaking promise after promise, committing atrocity after atrocity.

If only we had more of that.
 
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#14,820
#14,820
LouderVol said:
Because removing guns from civilians saves sooo many lives.

Our government saved so many soldiers lives by removing guns from the natives while bouncing them from reservation to reservation. Breaking promise after promise, committing atrocity after atrocity.

If only we had more of that.
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Trying to drum up some fear? That always helps.
 
#14,823
#14,823
LouderVol said:
The anti gun argument is built on fear. Irrational and unreasonable.
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How many decades have they been telling you Democrats are going to take your gun? How many years have they been telling you that it will lead to the slaughter of every man, woman, and child by the government? You bought the fear a long time ago.

Your post was irrational, unreasonable, and irresponsible.
 
#14,824
#14,824
Mick said:
How many decades have they been telling you Democrats are going to take your gun? How many years have they been telling you that it will lead to the slaughter of every man, woman, and child by the government? You bought the fear a long time ago.

Your post was irrational, unreasonable, and irresponsible.
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And your fear of an inanimate object is just as irrational, unreasonable and irresponsible.
 
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#14,825
#14,825
0nelilreb said:
Do you realize just how ironic that statement is coming from a democrat ? I mean really , the Dems main platforms are fear and racism .
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I have seen a few Trump adds here in GA over the past few days.
Every one of them has played completely on fear and division.
 
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