Gun control debate (merged)

#2,102
#2,102
ClearwaterVol said:
Not a troll, just a tongue in cheek hypothetical that raises some of the concerns the left has with the claims that people strapped can save lives and protect the public.
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I'll ask you this, would you rather the 3 innocents get killed or 30? Double edged sword.
 
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#2,104
#2,104
ClearwaterVol said:
Just a quick hypo - Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is going to attack the local Wal-Mart on Black Friday. Al, as Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is known, approaches the Wal-Mart before it opens when there is a huge throng of people outside waiting to trample each other in hopes of getting a cheap TV. As Al approaches the line of innocents he pulls out his assault rifle with its his high capacity magazine and takes aim at the crowd.

Now, at the same time, Cletus Jethro McCoy, who is approaching Al from behind and who is licensed to carry and has a desert eagle strapped to his left hip, a .45 in a shoulder holster and knife in his boot sees Al approach the crowd and draw his weapon. He quickly pulls his .45 and quickly squeezes off 5 rounds, the first 3 are off target and hit 3 people in the crowd. The 4th and 5th find their mark and strike Al. Al falls to the ground, but is still twitching about so Cletus, fearful that Al might still try to kill some of the innocent Wal-Mart shoppers, races up to him and slits his throat with his knife. It all happens so quickly that Al doesn't even get off a shot.

The three people that were struck by Cletus' errant shots all die. Unlikely as it seems the three people killed were all sisters. LaShonda, Tangilique and Zeniqua Johnson were all in line waiting to buy their children Christmas gifts. Interestingly, they each had 4 children by 3 different baby daddy.

Does Cletus get prosecuted for negligent homicide or do you throw him a parade?
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Who carries a .45 as a CCW in a shoulder holster?

Cops don't count.
 
#2,111
#2,111
ClearwaterVol said:
Just a quick hypo - Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is going to attack the local Wal-Mart on Black Friday. Al, as Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is known, approaches the Wal-Mart before it opens when there is a huge throng of people outside waiting to trample each other in hopes of getting a cheap TV. As Al approaches the line of innocents he pulls out his assault rifle with its his high capacity magazine and takes aim at the crowd.

Now, at the same time, Cletus Jethro McCoy, who is approaching Al from behind and who is licensed to carry and has a desert eagle strapped to his left hip, a .45 in a shoulder holster and knife in his boot sees Al approach the crowd and draw his weapon. He quickly pulls his .45 and quickly squeezes off 5 rounds, the first 3 are off target and hit 3 people in the crowd. The 4th and 5th find their mark and strike Al. Al falls to the ground, but is still twitching about so Cletus, fearful that Al might still try to kill some of the innocent Wal-Mart shoppers, races up to him and slits his throat with his knife. It all happens so quickly that Al doesn't even get off a shot.

The three people that were struck by Cletus' errant shots all die. Unlikely as it seems the three people killed were all sisters. LaShonda, Tangilique and Zeniqua Johnson were all in line waiting to buy their children Christmas gifts. Interestingly, they each had 4 children by 3 different baby daddy.

Does Cletus get prosecuted for negligent homicide or do you throw him a parade?
Click to expand...
Throw him a parade, and arm him with grenades and a flamethrower when he recovers.
 
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#2,113
#2,113
ClearwaterVol said:
Just a quick hypo - Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is going to attack the local Wal-Mart on Black Friday. Al, as Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is known, approaches the Wal-Mart before it opens when there is a huge throng of people outside waiting to trample each other in hopes of getting a cheap TV. As Al approaches the line of innocents he pulls out his assault rifle with its his high capacity magazine and takes aim at the crowd.

Now, at the same time, Cletus Jethro McCoy, who is approaching Al from behind and who is licensed to carry and has a desert eagle strapped to his left hip, a .45 in a shoulder holster and knife in his boot sees Al approach the crowd and draw his weapon. He quickly pulls his .45 and quickly squeezes off 5 rounds, the first 3 are off target and hit 3 people in the crowd. The 4th and 5th find their mark and strike Al. Al falls to the ground, but is still twitching about so Cletus, fearful that Al might still try to kill some of the innocent Wal-Mart shoppers, races up to him and slits his throat with his knife. It all happens so quickly that Al doesn't even get off a shot.

The three people that were struck by Cletus' errant shots all die. Unlikely as it seems the three people killed were all sisters. LaShonda, Tangilique and Zeniqua Johnson were all in line waiting to buy their children Christmas gifts. Interestingly, they each had 4 children by 3 different baby daddy.

Does Cletus get prosecuted for negligent homicide or do you throw him a parade?
Click to expand...

He gets prosecuted. That's not a hard one at all. Good luck getting a jury to convict in the south though.
 
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#2,115
#2,115
SpaceCoastVol said:
Good Samaritan laws?
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I am sure it would be raised as a defense, but someone who helps another person in an emergency situation will be liable if they act in a manner that ultimately exacerbates the injury and/or condition rather than alleviating it. According to the Good Samaritan law, once an individual begins to provide aid to another, a duty forms to exercise due care. Due care, sometimes referred to as reasonable care, is defined as acting in a manner that a reasonably prudent person would act under the same or similar circumstances. The reasonable person standard is a legal creation. It is an objective test.
 
#2,117
#2,117
ClearwaterVol said:
I am sure it would be raised as a defense, but someone who helps another person in an emergency situation will be liable if they act in a manner that ultimately exacerbates the injury and/or condition rather than alleviating it. According to the Good Samaritan law, once an individual begins to provide aid to another, a duty forms to exercise due care. Due care, sometimes referred to as reasonable care, is defined as acting in a manner that a reasonably prudent person would act under the same or similar circumstances. The reasonable person standard is a legal creation. It is an objective test.
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I agree that the good Samaritan laws wouldn't/shouldn't apply in your scenario.

Lets tweak your scenario just a bit. The terrorist fired first, even just in the general direction of Cletus and in returning fire 3 innocents were killed, Cletus shouldn't be prosecuted.
 
#2,119
#2,119
ClearwaterVol said:
I am sure it would be raised as a defense, but someone who helps another person in an emergency situation will be liable if they act in a manner that ultimately exacerbates the injury and/or condition rather than alleviating it. According to the Good Samaritan law, once an individual begins to provide aid to another, a duty forms to exercise due care. Due care, sometimes referred to as reasonable care, is defined as acting in a manner that a reasonably prudent person would act under the same or similar circumstances. The reasonable person standard is a legal creation. It is an objective test.
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So as long as Johnny Jihad's assault weapon fires, Cletus should be fine. It's anything but a reasonable man test since attorneys can argue it both ways. You take reasonableness out of the equation.
And in rethinking your scenario, Jihadi goes in with 10 loaded magazines and numerous weapons. Cletus fires and kills bystanders. You can seriously argue he exacerbated the situation?????
 
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#2,120
#2,120
ClearwaterVol said:
Just a quick hypo - Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is going to attack the local Wal-Mart on Black Friday. Al, as Mohammed Al Akbar Dalai Lama is known, approaches the Wal-Mart before it opens when there is a huge throng of people outside waiting to trample each other in hopes of getting a cheap TV. As Al approaches the line of innocents he pulls out his assault rifle with its his high capacity magazine and takes aim at the crowd.

Now, at the same time, Cletus Jethro McCoy, who is approaching Al from behind and who is licensed to carry and has a desert eagle strapped to his left hip, a .45 in a shoulder holster and knife in his boot sees Al approach the crowd and draw his weapon. He quickly pulls his .45 and quickly squeezes off 5 rounds, the first 3 are off target and hit 3 people in the crowd. The 4th and 5th find their mark and strike Al. Al falls to the ground, but is still twitching about so Cletus, fearful that Al might still try to kill some of the innocent Wal-Mart shoppers, races up to him and slits his throat with his knife. It all happens so quickly that Al doesn't even get off a shot.

The three people that were struck by Cletus' errant shots all die. Unlikely as it seems the three people killed were all sisters. LaShonda, Tangilique and Zeniqua Johnson were all in line waiting to buy their children Christmas gifts. Interestingly, they each had 4 children by 3 different baby daddy.

Does Cletus get prosecuted for negligent homicide or do you throw him a parade?
Click to expand...

GOP standard response: "The sisters were just in the wrong place at the wrong time." And Cletus gets accolades for exercising his 2nd amendment rights as apparently the rights of others don't count.
 
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#2,121
#2,121
hog88 said:
I agree that the good Samaritan laws wouldn't/shouldn't apply in your scenario.

Lets tweak your scenario just a bit. The terrorist fired first, even just in the general direction of Cletus and in returning fire 3 innocents were killed, Cletus shouldn't be prosecuted.
Click to expand...

Wholeheartedly disagree. If Cletus opens fire he assumes the risk of what results therefrom. Without holding him and the initial shooter accountable, then we are simply a "Wild West" society where the rules of law don't apply, law enforcement is pointless, and it is simply ever man, woman, and child for themselves.

Flame away righties!
 
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#2,122
#2,122
bnhunt said:
Wholeheartedly disagree. If Cletus opens fire he assumes the risk of what results therefrom. Without holding him and the initial shooter accountable, then we are simply a "Wild West" society where the rules of law don't apply, law enforcement is pointless, and it simply ever man, woman, and child for themselves.

Flame away righties!
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OK, thanks. If I am strapped at some sort of liberal event, I will be sure to leave it in the holster so that as many liberals as possible are killed by the offenders and not to endanger my personal freedom. If the bad guys come toward me, I will be sure to wait until I can place my weapon firmly upon their temple before pulling the trigger. Happy? All your friends are dead now. Not just a couple. :cray::cray::cray:
 
#2,123
#2,123
bnhunt said:
then we are simply a "Wild West" society where the rules of law don't apply, law enforcement is pointless, and it is simply ever man, woman, and child for themselves.

Flame away righties!
Click to expand...

You act like this isn't the case right now...
 
#2,124
#2,124
hog88 said:
I agree that the good Samaritan laws wouldn't/shouldn't apply in your scenario.

Lets tweak your scenario just a bit. The terrorist fired first, even just in the general direction of Cletus and in returning fire 3 innocents were killed, Cletus shouldn't be prosecuted.
Click to expand...

If you were engaging an active shooter there is a very real argument that collateral damage might still be considered outside a criminal act. If somebody took down a person in the actual process of trying to kill as many people as they could the net positive would be very hard to deny.

Now having said all the above you'd almost certainly be looking at a civil suit even if lionized as a hero by the majority.
 
#2,125
#2,125
bnhunt said:
Wholeheartedly disagree. If Cletus opens fire he assumes the risk of what results therefrom. Without holding him and the initial shooter accountable, then we are simply a "Wild West" society where the rules of law don't apply, law enforcement is pointless, and it is simply ever man, woman, and child for themselves.

Flame away righties!
Click to expand...

I'm not flaming you here but pointing out an irrefutable fact...if law enforcement is not present when needed their existence is, at least for the duration they remain absent, basically pointless. Somewhat like a flotation device you weren't wearing when thrown overboard...it's not a question of the usefulness of LEO or flotation devices but rather the fact neither is omnipresent.
 
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