Gun control debate (merged)

[Vol8188]

I would think I know yours at least as well as you know mine.
I've always acknowledged that the gun problem is multifaceted. The crime problem is multifaceted. Guns are part of the problem.
We have nuts on here who continue to say, we do not have a gun problem we have a people problem. It's that simplistic view that is a non-starter (maybe that's why they espouse that view). So I take it that is not part of your narrative?
We even have a couple of people who go as far as pretty much outright saying. it's a black people problem.

We do not have a gun problem and I’ve provided you plenty of data on that. None of which you’ve even disagreed with. If the problem was guns, the Americans with the most guns would be committing the most homicides.

 

[Vol Main]

People incline to misunderstand the Second Amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I think many, probably most people infer from the wording that militia is necessary to guard against a potential government tyranny, that it should serve as an opposing force to the government. But that was not the reasoning behind the words. Based on history of Europe, many of the Founders believed that a large, standing army was the greatest threat to freedom. So they wanted a small army, with Congress controlling its funding. They regarded militia important as a backup and reinforcement to the small army. That was the thinking about "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State," to support the small army if a war broke out.

 

[Vol Main]

White males lead the category but are statistically less likely than other groups. Meaning white males by virtue of being the majority, represent the plurality of mass shootings but a lower number than that of their percent of the population.

The white homicide rate in the US is between 1.2-2.2 per 100k. That’s very much on par.

Yeah, Wyoming has a very low homicide rate. And a lot of guns. Far greater access to Canada.

So if the problem is the guns, why is it not a problem is areas like Wyoming with a massive number of white gun owners

Nun uh. Last time I looked, Wyoming had a very high homicide rate.

 

[luthervol]

We do not have a gun problem and I’ve provided you plenty of data on that. None of which you’ve even disagreed with. If the problem was guns, the Americans with the most guns would be committing the most homicides.

The states with the most guns have the highest homicide rates. The state with the least guns have the lowest homicide rates.

 

[luthervol]

We do not have a gun problem and I’ve provided you plenty of data on that. None of which you’ve even disagreed with. If the problem was guns, the Americans with the most guns would be committing the most homicides.

Texas suffered 4,164 gun deaths in 2020, the most recent year for which the CDC has published data.
That's a rate of 14.2 deaths per 100,000 Texans.
California, by comparison, saw 3,449 deaths, a gun death rate of 8.5.
Texas does not have the highest gun death rate, however. Far from it.
The top states by gun death rates are:

• Mississippi -- 28.6.
• Louisiana -- 26.3.
• Wyoming -- 25.9.
• Missouri -- 23.9.
• Alabama -- 23.6.
• Alaska -- 23.5.

Are they all red states?
Do they all have lax gun laws?

 

[luthervol]

We do not have a gun problem and I’ve provided you plenty of data on that. None of which you’ve even disagreed with. If the problem was guns, the Americans with the most guns would be committing the most homicides.

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

• Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
• Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
• New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
• Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
• New York -- 5.3 (14%).

Blue states?

 

[C-south]

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

• Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
• Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
• New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
• Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
• New York -- 5.3 (14%).

Blue states?

And these stats are in large part, if not exclusively, based on the “honor system” just like some parts of a background check. There’s a reason people say they lost all their guns in a boating accident.

 

[Gandalf]

Banning Assault Rifles


Herschel Walker just gave a rambling speech, with a line about "taking your rights away." I always supported Second Amendment, and I still do. I know all of the arguments for it, and I've made them in the past. I still think everything I said was reasonable and right, except for one thing. When it got a lot of children killed, it stopped being right.


So don't talk to me about taking away your rights or "the security of a free state." High capacity, semi-automatic, high powered rifles on the market do not make us more secure. Obviously, they make us less secure. If you do not believe me, ask parents of those dead children. Ask the children who survived. Ask any sensible person. Do I think police should knock on your door and take away your rifle? No, and I want to quash talk of any proposed legislation to that effect, as quickly as possible. I believe that owning high capacity magazines, i.e. over seventeen, should be illegal. But I do not think that possession of the rifles themselves should become a crime. We need to stop people who want to commit mass murder from walking out of a gun store with one of those guns, and the only way to do that is to ban their manufacture and sale. That is what I support doing.


Look-it, I've owned a few semi-automatic long guns. I enjoyed shooting them and learning about them. I used to carry an M-16 rifle as a soldier and thought I had the right to own a high powered, semi-auto rifle if I wanted as a civilian. No, I don't. I have no right to weapons of war when they are the guns of choice to commit mass murders one after the other. Will the murders continue after people are no longer able to walk out of guns stores with assault rifles? Yes, but the murders will not be nearly as bad, and police will be able to respond more quickly and effectively.


I want gun owners to understand that banning the sale of assault rifles is not the end of their gun rights, not the end of our country, and not the end of the world. I imposed a self-ban, and I'm doing just fine. I do not need one, and neither do you. I do not want one, and I don't think you should.

I respect your opinion but your post is what happens when people use their feelings to make decisions instead of thinking.

That’s how we ended up with countless useless but expensive laws because politicians knew people were weak after some big event.

 

[hUTch2002]

I'm curious how many of you gun lovers grew up in a rural environment.
Where any of you raised in an urban environment?

I have more of a “friends with benefits” relationship.

 

[kiddiedoc]

2021 Ends as Chicago’s Deadliest Year in a Quarter Century – NBC Chicago

 

[Vol8188]

Nun uh. Last time I looked, Wyoming had a very high homicide rate.

Lol are you joking? These fluctuant by the year obviously but over the long term they’ve averaged about 2 per 100k.

Wyoming Murder/Homicide Rate 1979-2018

 

[Vol8188]

The states with the most guns have the highest homicide rates. The state with the least guns have the lowest homicide rates.

That’s not even remotely true. Where do you get this nonsense?

 

[C-south]

2021 Ends as Chicago’s Deadliest Year in a Quarter Century – NBC Chicago

Will be interesting to see the memorial weekend stats.

 

[EricStratton]

It was a ban on the manufacture and sale of assault rifles, whatever the wording. If all you're going to do is talk BS to me, then it won't last long.

Wrong. It was a limitation on then current magazine manufacturing capacity. Also limited the number of “assault” features on a firearm. Flash hider, pistol grip, bayonet lug, collapsing stock, detachable magazine and pistol grip. A firearm could have a total of 3 of the above. Also firearms and magazines manufactured prior to the date of start were grandfathered. The ban was enacted to span 10 years, which it did, with the built in “sunset” provision being executed against a very impotent attempt to stop the sunset. The 1994 AWB did nothing to curb crime. Just like the Tennessee fingerprint (thumbs) requirement to purchase a firearm. Although this was not tied to Brady or any other provision and was removed in the late 00s due to it never having been used to actually solve a crime.

Beyond that, all gun control measures enacted in the United States were classist and racist with their implementation.

Little known fact, the City of Knoxville has a law on the books where a person can “hand carry” an “1860 Army Revolver.” Why? Because the expense eliminated immigrants and other less affluent persons from owning one.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

People incline to misunderstand the Second Amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I think many, probably most people infer from the wording that militia is necessary to guard against a potential government tyranny, that it should serve as an opposing force to the government. But that was not the reasoning behind the words. Based on history of Europe, many of the Founders believed that a large, standing army was the greatest threat to freedom. So they wanted a small army, with Congress controlling its funding. They regarded militia important as a backup and reinforcement to the small army. That was the thinking about "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State," to support the small army if a war broke out.

Stop trying to bastardized the second amendment to satisfy your ridiculous narrative.

 

[Vol8188]

delete

 

[kiddiedoc]

I feel like we have a pretty decent contingent of what has been referred to as "gun nuts'" on this thread.

Quick show of hands: how many of us have committed a crime using a firearm? Expanding: how many have a friend or family member "gun nut" guilty of the same?

If I had to guess, this thread contains posts by VN members who legally possess over a thousand firearms.

Now, look up stats for Chicago, New York, LA, Pittsburg, Atlanta, Baltimore, etc. Get back to us.

 

[Vol8188]

Texas suffered 4,164 gun deaths in 2020, the most recent year for which the CDC has published data.
That's a rate of 14.2 deaths per 100,000 Texans.
California, by comparison, saw 3,449 deaths, a gun death rate of 8.5.
Texas does not have the highest gun death rate, however. Far from it.
The top states by gun death rates are:

• Mississippi -- 28.6.
• Louisiana -- 26.3.
• Wyoming -- 25.9.
• Missouri -- 23.9.
• Alabama -- 23.6.
• Alaska -- 23.5.

Are they all red states?
Do they all have lax gun laws?

Thought I'd take a second and actually look at the data. The first problem is you're not naming the states with the most guns. Because Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, nor Missouri would've made your list based off the source your stated.

According to Rand the top states in gun ownership in order are
1. Montana 31st
2. Alaska 12th
3. Wyoming 39th
4. West Virginia 28th
5. North Dakota 36th
6. Idaho 40th
7. South Dakota 50th

If you look at where they rank in terms of homicide only 1 of those 7 is in the upper half of US states in terms of homicide rate (Alaska). All of the others are in the bottom half to include 50th South Dakota, the state with the least homicides.

It seems you need to accept once and for all that gun ownership and homicide are in no way correlated.

Wyoming Murder/Homicide Rate 1979-2018
Gun Ownership in America

 

[Vol8188]

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

• Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
• Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
• New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
• Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
• New York -- 5.3 (14%).

Blue states?

Interesting. Let's compare in order the states with the lowest rate of gun ownership to homicide rates.

1. Hawaii 35th in homicide
2. NJ 30th in homicide
3. Mass 41st in homicide
4. RI 49th in homicide
5. NY 34th in homicide
6. Connecticut 37th in homicide
7. Maryland 3rd in homicide
8. Illinois 10th in homicide.

It's almost as if once again, there's no correlation.

HawaiNJRINYConneticutMarylandIllinois
Wyoming Murder/Homicide Rate 1979-2018

Edit: Accidently skipped Massachusetts

 

[Vol8188]

The states with the most guns have the highest homicide rates. The state with the least guns have the lowest homicide rates.

I literally took the time to make you a scatterplot of all 50 states with the x being your gun numbers from Rand and the Y being homicide rates. I ranked all 50 from 1-50 in both categories. This scatterplot with NO CORRELATION is the result.

How can you state something that is obviously, 100% made up?

 

[VolinWayne]

This is why I carry. You never know when you will happen to be at the wrong place at the right time.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Doesn't apply. What kind of guns were they using 250 years ago?

They used muskets for line infantry companies. However, some men carried the Kentucky rifles many of which they owned personally. The Kentucky rifle had an effective range of 300 yards, almost four times that of the Brown Bess carried by the government troops. The Kentucky rifle provided the colonists a significant tactical advantage on the battlefield.

Which is why I have always found the argument the writers of the 2A would have intended to prevent civilians to carry weapons (bear arms) the equivalent of or superior to government troops absurd.

 

[norrislakevol]

Are you in the drug business? Got ten wives? Is there a valid reason for your being so afraid of the government?

No, no, and yes. I am affraid of the government because history teaches me to be.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Cannons

Owned by said same civilians.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Both.
And you know good and well mpg is determined more by the design of the car than the driver.

So Luther, would you say a gun with the ability to put 30+ rounds a minute into a standard target 300 yards down range should be banned?