Gun control debate (merged)

[clarksvol00]

the right to free speech is seen as inviolate but there are restrictions
the right to assembly is seen as inviolate but there are restrictions
the right to bear arms is seen as inviolate but there are restrictions

I've seen no one say there should be no restrictions whatsoever on bearing arms and I'd argue it's more restricted than the 1st

1) some people are completely barred from it (not so with the 1st)
2) many locations ban bearing arms but not nearly as much with the 1st
3) there are background checks, permits, waiting periods, capacity restrictions, function restrictions etc

Almost all 2A advocates accept these restrictions.

Both the 1A and 2A restrictions are debated. If you are suggesting 2A advocates are wary of even more restrictions I'd argue that's no different than 1A advocates being wary of even more restrictions.

I really don't see this distinction you are trying to draw.

If my state says Constitutional Carry is allowed but my business says I can't carry on the job how is that any different than your beard example?

Because there are restrictions on those things, they aren't inviolate.

 

[Vol Main]

There will never be a federal level ban. Any and all bans must be at the State and local level. Any push for the contrary is just fear mongering and fund raising.

Also a ban on assault weapons will die in committee.

There already was a federal ban. It expired in what, 2003? The Supreme Court might not support one now.

 

[sonofUT62]

He has a remarkable ability to show up in the wrong place, at the wrong time and say the wrong thing. Uncanny really.

And he sometimes he manages to do it in the 1 1/2 languages he speaks.

 

[volinbham]

They used homicides per 100k. What's unfair about that? It's the exact same data given by nation that was being discussed earlier.

TX is in between South Sudan and Guyana

I didn't say that metric was unfair. They used it when convenient and abandoned it when inconvenient. Texas is actually middle of the pack in per 100K and multiple blue states have higher than Texas on this metric. Illinois is nearly identical on the metric.

Texas should have more gun deaths in total than Illinois given the size differential.

 

[AshG]

I am for a voluntary buyback program. Offer quality incentives in more violence-prone areas.

There are likely many 2a-positive options if we can take the time to put our heads together and come up with them.

 

[Vol Main]

While listening to the progressive radio shows today, their definition of the second amendment was for only the military and/or LEO's to own firearms. During multiple segments of their shows, the EO issue was brought up, with the talk about banning AR15's by EO and semi-automatic handguns. Their remarks regarding AR15 ownership were extreme, especially against a so-called tyrannical government, because one man with an AR15 or several thousand men with AR's, can not stop a government that has nuclear capabilities. We'll just nuke you. Verbatim.

There is no shortage of foolish talk from the left.

 

[Vol Main]

The reluctance of so many is telling.
I would guess that people raised in a rural environment view guns differently.
That's completely understandable.

In my experience, there isn't much way of sport shooting in an urban area.

 

[AshG]

There is no shortage of foolish talk from the left.

You've got to admit, the pesky "well regulated militia" portion of the amendment has been the focal point of many fights in this issue.

 

[luthervol]

I didn't say that metric was unfair. They used it when convenient and abandoned it when inconvenient. Texas is actually middle of the pack in per 100K and multiple blue states have higher than Texas on this metric. Illinois is nearly identical on the metric.

Texas should have more gun deaths in total than Illinois given the size differential.

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

• Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
• Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
• New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
• Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
• New York -- 5.3 (14%).

Blue states?

 

[volinbham]

First, parts of your assertion are not quite accurate, but some are, more or less. I doubt that our White homicide rates are on par with UK and Canada, but I also think that the ethnicity of a community is the most reliable predictor of murder rates, with Black, Hispanic, White, Asian being the high to low. Not sure about Whites being less likely to commit a mass shooting. I thought white males were in the lead on that category.

I'm not sure they are proportionately in the lead. Given they are the largest group they should be in the total lead if ethnicity has no explanatory power.

Per an article in the other thread much depends on what you consider a mass shooting. The general definition is shooting where at least 4 (sometimes 3) people are shot (not necessarily killed). With that definition I'm betting white males are significantly under represented. If you are talking school mass shootings (eg. active shooter in a school and at least 4 people shot) it may be pretty even. There's other examples too (eg. active shooter mass shooting other than school like the Buffalo shooting).

 

[volinbham]

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

• Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
• Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
• New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
• Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
• New York -- 5.3 (14%).

Blue states?

The relationship only holds at the extreme ends - in the vast middle (dare I say it - of the continuum) it is a mix of red and blue states.

Now, maybe we should take a look at cities with the highest death rates and compare them red vs blue. What do you think you'd find and would you reach the same conclusion you appear to be now?

 

[Vol Main]

You've got to admit, the pesky "well regulated militia" portion of the amendment has been the focal point of many fights in this issue.

My impression is that people incline to say more about militia than they actually know. There are some wrong ideas floating around.

 

[volinbham]

Because there are restrictions on those things, they aren't inviolate.

I'm trying to figure out where you came up with the observation that the right to bear arms IS considered inviolate when so many restrictions exist

 

[CagleMtnVol]

Doesn't apply. What kind of guns were they using 250 years ago?

The best they could get their hands on or sneak in to the country around the government (British) blockade.

 

[volinbham]

Doesn't apply. What kind of guns were they using 250 years ago?

using this logic the 1A only applies to yelling in the town square and pamphlets - all electronic forms of communication don't count since they weren't being used then.

 

[luthervol]

The relationship only holds at the extreme ends - in the vast middle (dare I say it - of the continuum) it is a mix of red and blue states.

Now, maybe we should take a look at cities with the highest death rates and compare them red vs blue. What do you think you'd find and would you reach the same conclusion you appear to be now?

I know some cities have higher rates because they have a large number of economically and socially disadvantage people living in high density areas with a flood of easily available illegal guns.
But the strong correlation between gun ownership rates and homicide rates in each of the 50 states cannot be denied.

 

[volinbham]

I know some cities have higher rates because they have a large number of economically and socially disadvantage people living in high density areas with a flood of easily available illegal guns.
But the strong correlation between gun ownership rates and homicide rates in each of the 50 states cannot be denied.

IOW - I'll pick the data that supports my views and conveniently ignore the other so I don't have to challenge my views.

 

[EricStratton]

There already was a federal ban. It expired in what, 2003? The Supreme Court might not support one now.

No, that was a ban on specific accessories and general stupidity. Toothless, pointless and did nothing. Wasn’t a gun ban.

 

[luthervol]

IOW - I'll pick the data that supports my views and conveniently ignore the other so I don't have to challenge my views.

What data am I ignoring?
I think it's you guys who are desperately trying to ignore the data I presented because it goes against your narrative.

 

[Vol Main]

No, that was a ban on specific accessories and general stupidity. Toothless, pointless and did nothing. Wasn’t a gun ban.

It was a ban on the manufacture and sale of assault rifles, whatever the wording. If all you're going to do is talk BS to me, then it won't last long.

 

[volinbham]

What data am I ignoring?
I think it's you guys who are desperately trying to ignore the data I presented because it goes against your narrative.

I didn't ignore your data - I looked into it (beyond the CNN article) and put in context with other data.

The truth is this isn't about one thing or a few things - it's a massively complex problem and articles like the one you posted that boils it down to "the ONE thing" they have in common are a poor attempt to fit a massively complex problem into a neat; political narrative.

You clearly don't even know what my narrative is.

 

[luthervol]

I didn't ignore your data - I looked into it (beyond the CNN article) and put in context with other data.

The truth is this isn't about one thing or a few things - it's a massively complex problem and articles like the one you posted that boils it down to "the ONE thing" they have in common are a poor attempt to fit a massively complex problem into a neat; political narrative.

You clearly don't even know what my narrative is.

I would think I know yours at least as well as you know mine.
I've always acknowledged that the gun problem is multifaceted. The crime problem is multifaceted. Guns are part of the problem.
We have nuts on here who continue to say, we do not have a gun problem we have a people problem. It's that simplistic view that is a non-starter (maybe that's why they espouse that view). So I take it that is not part of your narrative?
We even have a couple of people who go as far as pretty much outright saying. it's a black people problem.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

using this logic the 1A only applies to yelling in the town square and pamphlets - all electronic forms of communication don't count since they weren't being used then.

Our forefathers could never have envisioned that idiots would be able to vomit their brains onto the internet for billions to read instantaneously.

 

[AshG]

We even have a couple of people who go as far as pretty much outright saying. it's a black people problem.

Race. Sexuality. Immigrant family. Political affiliation. Pick your identifying category and run with it; variations on these have all come up in this conversation.

The human brain attempts to insulate itself in tragedies by helping people believe that their specific population subgroup is not capable of such atrocities. That same insulation creates enough distance that it dampens the desire to address the situation.

 

[Vol8188]

First, parts of your assertion are not quite accurate, but some are, more or less. I doubt that our White homicide rates are on par with UK and Canada. I read an article arguing that the ethnicity of a community is the most reliable predictor of murder rates, with Black, Hispanic, White, Asian being the high to low. Not sure how accurate that is. Ever looked at the murder rates in Wyoming? About Whites being less likely to commit a mass shooting, I thought white males were in the lead on that category.

White males lead the category but are statistically less likely than other groups. Meaning white males by virtue of being the majority, represent the plurality of mass shootings but a lower number than that of their percent of the population.

The white homicide rate in the US is between 1.2-2.2 per 100k. That’s very much on par.

Yeah, Wyoming has a very low homicide rate. And a lot of guns. Far greater access to Canada.

So if the problem is the guns, why is it not a problem is areas like Wyoming with a massive number of white gun owners