Good article: 10 Questions for 2018: Defensive Line Depth

[OnlyGodForgives]

Sure, that supports your hypothesis. You can check his 2nd year at LSU or his 2nd year at Alabama which supports mine. Quite a bit of improvement between years one and two.

His second years at LSU and Bama are the only two germane to this discussion, unless you consider Michigan State to be one of TN's arch-rivals.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Volnation should have a character limit for you. It seems that every post you make is a short essay.

I know. It's a terrible flaw I have.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I bet JP appreciates a clear and concise article over one liner tweets. I like that about him.

I do, Charger.

I like interesting thoughts. And interesting thoughts tend to be the type that can't be captured in a single sentence.

That's not to say there aren't any short, brilliant thoughts. Some of the very best are brief. But they're rare. No, most interesting things take a bit of explaining.

*shrug* I recognize it as a fault of mine.

 

[orangebloodgmc]

This article has Lawless in the mix with everybody else, and no asterisk qualifiers? That blows author's credibility right there, I'd say.

 

[Jack Burton]

Or...what?

You want to start another coaching search just 18 months from now, if Pruitt isn't, what, 10-2 in 2019? 9-3? 8-4?

Or, if you're not already planning a contingency coaching search, what? That you'll stop thinking he's our long term solution?

How impactful do you think that will be, you changing your mind about him?

...

Here's a thought experiment for you. Let's say you set "9-3 by Year 2 or Bust!" as your definition of "marked improvement." And then let's say he doesn't meet that. So you condemn him in your mind. Right? And then in year 3, he wins the SEC championship. And in year 4, a national title.

How wrong will you have been then?

And how unimportant will your post-year 2 defamation of the man be?

Get it?

There are many paths to greatness. Stop fixating on just one of them.

The “or what” is the informed fan will become skeptical. The informed fan will realize this probably isn’t the “guy” based on modern SEC history. Sure, Pruitt will get year 3 and maybe 4 despite the average joe’s ridicule, but the informed fan knows it’s likely not going to work out long term based on the first 2 years trajectory. Red sky at morning, sailors warning. It’s just a sign of what is to come.

Your thought experiment is fun. If he wins the SEC year 3 then amazing. National Title year 4 superb. I’ll happily eat crow and delete my account. SEC stats show that’s unlikely though. He’ll get 4 years anyway despite Jack Burton’s internet posts.

It’s year 2 or bust to determine big time coaches in the SEC. If not, he’s not the guy and each day you wait to change digs the hole deeper.

 

[Behr]

Cool hypothesis bro.

 

[KBVol]

Here's a link that works:

10 Questions for 2018: Defensive Line Depth | Gameday on Rocky Top

Heh, article starts off with the fictional "all great coaches win big in year 2" stance. Making me wonder if the article was written by a VN.com regular....

Read a little closer JP....the part about ....”at Tennessee’s rival institutions” in particular. Saban won 12 games in year 2, Urban won 13 at Florida, Smart won 13 at Georgia.

Fact is, in the Southeastern Conference since 1992, when the league was broken up into Eastern and Western divisions and we started playing a conference championship game, nearly all coaches who have ever led their team to a conference title were very good and “hit it big” by year two. Conversely, nearly every coach who hasn’t “hit it big in year 2, by winning 9 games or more, hasn’t won an SEC title the last quarter century or so.

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

Basically what we are counting on for our returning players who haven't lived up to their potential yet is:

1) Better, more effective S&C
2) Better coaching
3) Better system that fits their abilities
4) More mature athletes who are hoping to get drafted
5) Less injuries and suspensions

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Basically what we are counting on for our returning players who haven't lived up to their potential yet is:

1) Better, more effective S&C
2) Better coaching
3) Better system that fits their abilities
4) More mature athletes who are hoping to get drafted
5) Less injuries and suspensions

6) Not having a lame duck HC means the team remains focused on the back end of the schedule against UK, Mizzou, and Vandy.

 

[butchna]

Cool hypothesis bro.

It’s like when the egotistical football player gives himself a nickname...then never starts a game. “Informed football fan” sounds kinda self-appointed.

 

[05_never_again]

Surprised Dabo hasn't been mentioned in this thread as another exception. Seems like eons ago, but that dude was *this* close to being fired after year 2 (his second full year).

Don't get to fixated on "year 2." I think a more general point that can be made that if a coach is truly a "great coach," you typically don't have to wait around all that long before finding out if they were a great coach. Coaches who end up being great typically don't wade through 7 years of mediocrity before winning a ton of championships. They improve the team rather quickly.

Saban at Michigan St and Dabo are 2 exceptions to that rule that immediately come to mind, and I'm sure there are others, but there is no shortage of examples where a coach who became a great coach had the machine humming by year 2 or 3. Saban at LSU, Saban at Alabama, Urban at Florida, Urban at Ohio St, Kirby (maybe, he's only been there 2 years but has already won a conference title), Jimbo Fisher at FSU, Bob Stoops at Oklahoma, etc.

 

[UT-Rex]

The exact words were true “The coaches who hit it big at Tennessee’s rival institutions – Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Kirby Smart – all validated themselves in year two. It’s a well-documented leap, one great coaches tend to make.“

Go check out Nick Saban's 2nd year as a head coach (hint: he was at Michigan State at the time).

JP, I'm also unsure how this CJP situation can be compared to CNS's (end of Yr 2) situation at LSU (especially at AL).

PERHAPS, if CJP is expected to have the level of success at Tenn by EOY2 that Saban had at EOY2 at LSU, then this will boil down to CPF being here with CJP as AD.

Maybe CJP could succeed EOY2 as a first year hc with John Currie as AD, but I think (trust/suspect) that CPF's being here as AD should/might be worth several more wins, each of yrs 1 and 2.

 

[Pacer92]

JP, I'm also unsure how this CJP situation can be compared to CNS's (end of Yr 2) situation at LSU (especially at AL).

PERHAPS, if CJP is expected to have the level of success at Tenn by EOY2 that Saban had at EOY2 at LSU, then this will boil down to CPF being here with CJP as AD.

Maybe CJP could succeed EOY2 as a first year hc with John Currie as AD, but I think (trust/suspect) that CPF's being here as AD should/might be worth several more wins, each of yrs 1 and 2.

Agree

 

[VolFan..But]

It happens when a school hires schitty coaches and retains coaches past their prime.

It happens when the idiot President has an AD search public and the only candidate they can get is Hamilton. Then Hamilton tries to sabotage the program starting in 2004 (Ainge admitted he was approached by Hamilton in 2003 to help get rid of the Hall of Famer). While doing everything he can to destroy the program and getting Haslem on board under the pretense of "not letting Fulmer break all of your coaches (Neyland) records". After ruining the program, they set out to hire and found the big timers wanted nothing to do with this program. Stoops told Hamilton "If Phil can't make you happy then I can't either". This left them with the B list of candidates. And that is what we have got every since. Which has taken UT back to the pre Fulmer years of success. So UT is doing about as well as they did before the great Hall of Famer.

Now the great Hall of Famer will fix what Hamilton destroyed....in time. It has been about 14 years of breaking in the mix. It will take a few to fix. Those of you that do not have the patience, then you will continue the program's track of circling the drain. Or you can chill and let them fix the mess Hamilton and the President started.

 

[Orangeredblooded]

Volnation should have a character limit for you. It seems that every post you make is a short essay.

Or makes sense, because sometimes a poster needs it spelled out for them. I’m one that likes the in-depth explanation and debating.

 

[Vol423]

The “or what” is the informed fan will become skeptical. The informed fan will realize this probably isn’t the “guy” based on modern SEC history. Sure, Pruitt will get year 3 and maybe 4 despite the average joe’s ridicule, but the informed fan knows it’s likely not going to work out long term based on the first 2 years trajectory. Red sky at morning, sailors warning. It’s just a sign of what is to come.

Your thought experiment is fun. If he wins the SEC year 3 then amazing. National Title year 4 superb. I’ll happily eat crow and delete my account. SEC stats show that’s unlikely though. He’ll get 4 years anyway despite Jack Burton’s internet posts.

It’s year 2 or bust to determine big time coaches in the SEC. If not, he’s not the guy and each day you wait to change digs the hole deeper.

Straw man arguments are great. Had Saban and Urban Meyer not hit it big in the SEC (Not their first head coaching jobs, mind you. That was a nice piece of intellectual dishonesty when comparing the situations.) in their second seasons, clearly the remainder of their coaching careers would have turned out to be colossal failures. Right?

 

[Vol423]

JP, I'm also unsure how this CJP situation can be compared to CNS's (end of Yr 2) situation at LSU (especially at AL).

PERHAPS, if CJP is expected to have the level of success at Tenn by EOY2 that Saban had at EOY2 at LSU, then this will boil down to CPF being here with CJP as AD.

Maybe CJP could succeed EOY2 as a first year hc with John Currie as AD, but I think (trust/suspect) that CPF's being here as AD should/might be worth several more wins, each of yrs 1 and 2.

The Fulmer love fest is hilarious. No team wins more games due to their athletic director.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The Fulmer love fest is hilarious. No team wins more games due to their athletic director.

Sure, you just aren't letting your imagination work.

Imagine this: an AD that takes a LOT of the representational duties, the glad-handing and shmoozing boosters ... leaving the coach free to focus on his main duties.

That could save a new coach a lot of "breaking in" OJT kind of learning curve. Let him just do the parts of the job that he already knew how to do--coach football, recruit, develop players, and plan the Xs and Os.

That would make the coach better. == more games won, maybe.

See? An AD can help win games.

 

[Vol423]

Sure, you just aren't letting your imagination work.

Imagine this: an AD that takes a LOT of the representational duties, the glad-handing and shmoozing boosters ... leaving the coach free to focus on his main duties.

That could save a new coach a lot of "breaking in" OJT kind of learning curve. Let him just do the parts of the job that he already knew how to do--coach football, recruit, develop players, and plan the Xs and Os.

That would make the coach better. == more games won, maybe.

See? An AD can help win games.

What a load of crap! I repeat again: NO team wins more games because of their athletic director.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

What a load of crap! I repeat again: NO team wins more games because of their athletic director.

Oh, I see: we're using the Peter J. Holcomb Pre-K and Elementary School "Rules of Debate."

Okay, I can deal.

Ahem.

Nanny nanny, boo boo, you eat doo doo.

Your turn.

p.s. if you'd like to switch gears and introduce an actual idea or new bit of information supporting your point of view (preferably one that is not a blatant insult), I'm happy to go back to the mature version of a conversation. As you wish.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Or...what?

You want to start another coaching search just 18 months from now, if Pruitt isn't, what, 10-2 in 2019? 9-3? 8-4?

Or, if you're not already planning a contingency coaching search, what? That you'll stop thinking he's our long term solution?

How impactful do you think that will be, you changing your mind about him?

...

Here's a thought experiment for you. Let's say you set "9-3 by Year 2 or Bust!" as your definition of "marked improvement." And then let's say he doesn't meet that. So you condemn him in your mind. Right? And then in year 3, he wins the SEC championship. And in year 4, a national title.

How wrong will you have been then?

And how unimportant will your post-year 2 defamation of the man be?

Get it?

There are many paths to greatness. Stop fixating on just one of them.

I don't think we can put a number on it and say that is "marked improvement". It's one of those things where we'll know it when we see it. I think right now we're looking for something to hang our hats on. Something that gives us hope for the future.

 

[81Orange]

This year 2 thing is crap. It all depends on what you start with. Smart had the talent when he arrived, and that’s rare.

You know you have a good coach when you see steady significant improvement. You should be on track to arrive in 4-5 years, if you are starting from a below average position. Some great coaches have done it faster but that’s not the norm.

Butch was the perfect example of getting it half right. We saw the talent arrive but the development never came.

We need to see Pruitt recruit well and see players playing better than expected. I think we will know after year two if he has what it takes, but it will take longer to get there.

With GA in the east and playing AL every year it is going to be tough. We may come close a few years before breaking through.

 

[81Orange]

The Fulmer love fest is hilarious. No team wins more games due to their athletic director.

They do when the AD provides what the coach needs.

 

[butchna]

Fulmer knows (from experience) what red tape and administrative garbage can do to hinder a program. Thusly, he knows how to pave through it and HELP his HC...winning results.

 

[Jack Burton]

Straw man arguments are great. Had Saban and Urban Meyer not hit it big in the SEC (Not their first head coaching jobs, mind you. That was a nice piece of intellectual dishonesty when comparing the situations.) in their second seasons, clearly the remainder of their coaching careers would have turned out to be colossal failures. Right?

Never said they’d be colossal failures, but they’re unlikely to play for a National title or even win the conference if they don’t show great strides in year 2. What are great strides? Double digit wins imo.

The most recent SEC champion coaches to not win the SEC Championship in 2 years were Les Miles who won it in year 3 (2007) along with a National Championship and Nick Saban who won it in year 3 (2009) along with a National Championship. Both coaches had double digit wins in their 2nd seasons, 11 and 12 respectively. Great strides.

Since then every conference championship winning coach has been a previous winner (Miles & Saban) or accomplished it by year 2 (Smart & Chizik) or year 1 (Malzahn).

This is the modern SEC. It speaks for itself. No straw men needed.