Gerrymandering in Virginia

#477
#477
OrangeTsar said:
In theory I agree. But in practicality; it just ain’t working.
Just like in business, if you haven’t invested in the stock of a company, you can vote on the shareholder’s meeting.
Or in a more homespun analogy; if you want to partake in the pot luck; it is expected that you bring a dish.
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Oh, I completely agree with the sentiment.

If I had my way citizenship and the right to vote would be earned. I'd implement the Starship Troopers citizenship model but currently under our constitution we can't exclude entitlement takers from voting.
 
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#479
#479
hog88 said:
My personal belief is that as soon as a citizen is eligible for the draft they are eligible to vote and exercise every right of adulthood.
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If everyone was forced to do 4 years of some form of serving through military or coast guard I would agree but the draft is never happening again.

The draft is solely intended to wipe out the lower income class and too many politicians need that class now. It would be career suicide.
 
#480
#480
BigOrangeMojo said:
If you wanted to make it 18+ only counted for Congressional representation size requirements, then that is a reasonable argument. I think all is better but respect that.

To say that you arent included in Congressional representation size requirements because you paid 5-6 federal taxes but not income is silly. Or if you fought for the country and paid income taxes for decades but now you dont because you are on social security, etc. Or if you had a major medical expense one year and dont have to pay income taxes that year. Or lost a job that you had for 30 years..
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Which is why I said we ought to simplify the tax code and get rid of all the ********. Make it a nice even, reasonable structure where everyone gets to chip in a reasonable amount (open for discussion), that way when you don't, it's not because you had kids or a medical expense. It's not so easy to just say "if you don't pay taxes..." right now because look at all you listed that reduces tax credit. There's too much confusing mess in the tax code.

We also need to get rid of social security and a bunch of the other crap, so of course this is a pie in the sky discussion. I believe there ought to be skin in the game to be represented, at least at the federal level. I think the Senate needs to go back to being elected by state governments, EOs need to be blown away, and more and more. But we're never going back and our country will die for democratizing and bloating out the government class.
 
#481
#481
hog88 said:
Oh, I completely agree with the sentiment.

If I had my way citizenship and the right to vote would be earned. I'd implement the Starship Troopers citizenship model but currently under our constitution we can't exclude entitlement takers from voting.
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I could go with your thinking.

Skin in the game. Literally.
 
#483
#483
hog88 said:
Oh, I completely agree with the sentiment.

If I had my way citizenship and the right to vote would be earned. I'd implement the Starship Troopers citizenship model but currently under our constitution we can't exclude entitlement takers from voting.
Click to expand...
There is a reason the Roman Republic with its limited franchise lasted about 5 times longer than the Athenian Democracy.
The founding fathers took note of this.
 
#484
#484
ButchPlz said:
Pretty darn close to everything the government does requires payment of some kind.
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doesn't matter. they are still subject to the laws of this nation as a citizen. that gives them the right to vote. there should never, again, be a group of second class citizens.

as I always I fully support the equality of ALL rights.

the Constitution never once considers tax paying towards what rights you have. well I guess beyond the legal support of taxation. there is no Constitutional justification for it. If you can own a gun, and have that right protected by the 2A, while on welfare, you also have the right to vote while on welfare. If you have property rights while on welfare, you have the right to vote. If you are protected against unlawful search and seizure, and everything else, while on welfare, you have the right to vote. anything else is disgusting.
 
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#485
#485
OrangeTsar said:
There is a reason the Roman Republic with its limited franchise lasted about 5 times longer than the Athenian Democracy.
The founding fathers took note of this.
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The United States was designed with pretty strict limited franchise. Some of the exclusions were probably wrong. Some were 100% correct. Either way, we've democratized too much and these states signing electoral college pacts are missing the point.
 
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#488
#488
ButchPlz said:
Which is why I said we ought to simplify the tax code and get rid of all the ********. Make it a nice even, reasonable structure where everyone gets to chip in a reasonable amount (open for discussion), that way when you don't, it's not because you had kids or a medical expense. It's not so easy to just say "if you don't pay taxes..." right now because look at all you listed that reduces tax credit. There's too much confusing mess in the tax code.

We also need to get rid of social security and a bunch of the other crap, so of course this is a pie in the sky discussion. I believe there ought to be skin in the game to be represented, at least at the federal level. I think the Senate needs to go back to being elected by state governments, EOs need to be blown away, and more and more. But we're never going back and our country will die for democratizing and bloating out the government class.
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I absolutely agree with you on tax code.
 
#489
#489
OrangeTsar said:
In theory I agree. But in practicality; it just ain’t working.
Just like in business, if you haven’t invested in the stock of a company, you can vote on the shareholder’s meeting.
Or in a more homespun analogy; if you want to partake in the pot luck; it is expected that you bring a dish.
Click to expand...
does that potluck guarantee your rights? does the business? do either of those set the laws that control literally every facet of your life? or at least the potential to do so.
 
#490
#490
LouderVol said:
doesn't matter. they are still subject to the laws of this nation as a citizen. that gives them the right to vote. there should never, again, be a group of second class citizens.

as I always I fully support the equality of ALL rights.

the Constitution never once considers tax paying towards what rights you have. well I guess beyond the legal support of taxation. there is no Constitutional justification for it. If you can own a gun, and have that right protected by the 2A, while on welfare, you also have the right to vote while on welfare. If you have property rights while on welfare, you have the right to vote. If you are protected against unlawful search and seizure, and everything else, while on welfare, you have the right to vote. anything else is disgusting.
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At this stage I don't particularly care if welfare recipients are second class citizens. Irresponsible people of all stripes are why we get stuck with the shitshow we keep getting stuck with, so why not limit the damage? People that are net drains on society should be limited until they straighten out as part of being wards of the state- let them be drug tested, searched, inspected, arms removed, etc. until they get themselves right. Either way too many people can vote as it stands today.

The best way to not have to worry about any of this is to get rid of welfare, get rid of perverse incentives to stay on or use welfare, etc.

EDIT: if the community wants to- and volunteers itself- to keep people off of government welfare (which none of us can simply opt out of paying), then we've got plenty of non-profit and/or faith-based service opportunities available.
 
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#491
#491
ButchPlz said:
The United States was designed with pretty strict limited franchise. Some of the exclusions were probably wrong. Some were 100% correct. Either way, we've democratized too much and these states signing electoral college pacts are missing the point.
Click to expand...
Yup. The central compromise of the Constitutional Convention was the balance between proportional representation (the House) and equal representation by States (the Senate). The electoral college was a key part of the bargain. Without it; the small states would have never ratified the Constitution. As such, it is sort of like a prenuptial agreement IMO. You do away with the great compromise, you have effectively broken trust with the founding promise of our Union.
 
#492
#492
LouderVol said:
doesn't matter. they are still subject to the laws of this nation as a citizen. that gives them the right to vote. there should never, again, be a group of second class citizens.

as I always I fully support the equality of ALL rights.

the Constitution never once considers tax paying towards what rights you have. well I guess beyond the legal support of taxation. there is no Constitutional justification for it. If you can own a gun, and have that right protected by the 2A, while on welfare, you also have the right to vote while on welfare. If you have property rights while on welfare, you have the right to vote. If you are protected against unlawful search and seizure, and everything else, while on welfare, you have the right to vote. anything else is disgusting.
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But voting is not included in the RoRs.
 
#493
#493
NEO said:
We apply this same logic to everything in life except voting. It just makes no logical sense.
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no we don't.

you have rights if you are on welfare. voting is a right.

my church, doesn't kick me out if I don't contribute to the tithe.

I can still walk into a store, and be subject to their rules and prices, even if I don't actually buy anything.

I still get pulled over by the cops even if I don't pay taxes.

the politician making decisions about my life whether I pay taxes or not.
 
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#494
#494
LouderVol said:
does that potluck guarantee your rights? does the business? do either of those set the laws that control literally every facet of your life? or at least the potential to do so.
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In my youth, I would have agreed with your point. As I grow older, I keep realizing more and more that some people really shouldn’t be voting.
I know that is an unconventional and unconstitutional position; but let’s face it; a large number of Americans are frankly idiots.
We are not a democracy as many people keep pointing out.
 
#495
#495
Guys in 1988 our national debt was 50 percent of GDP.

We are now well over 100 percent of GDP.

If you truly care about the future of this country and your children something has to change.
 
#497
#497
NEO said:
Guys in 1988 our national debt was 50 percent of GDP.

We are now well over 100 percent of GDP.

If you truly care about the future of this country and your children something has to change.
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It's too late to make the changes needed to save this country. We'll Balkanize or end up under a 1 party authoritarian rule.
 
#498
#498
NEO said:
Guys in 1988 our national debt was 50 percent of GDP.

We are now well over 100 percent of GDP.

If you truly care about the future of this country and your children something has to change.
Click to expand...

I think we all agree on that. Of course, the POTUS that did the most for the debt (Clinton) was the one elected by a coalition of non income taxpayers.....
 
#499
#499
OrangeTsar said:
There is a reason the Roman Republic with its limited franchise lasted about 5 times longer than the Athenian Democracy.
The founding fathers took note of this.
Click to expand...
depending on what you are calling the end Athenian Democracy, there are huge number of reasons outside of the voting system that caused it to fall.

it lost a war to Sparta, please explain how being a democracy lead to that.
it failed at establishing a colony in Sicily after investing a good bit of money.
There was a plague that killed a big chunk of the population, I guess the roman citizen soldiers voted theirs away.
They also lost their navy which protected their trade network.
their Democracy failed when they couldn't vote someone competent enough to deal with their issues. the Romans got EXTREMELY lucky with Cincinnatus, had he continued to reject their offers and had they been stuck with all the other failures they would have ended a lot sooner.
 
#500
#500
LouderVol said:
no we don't.

you have rights if you are on welfare. voting is a right.

my church, doesn't kick me out if I don't contribute to the tithe.

I can still walk into a store, and be subject to their rules and prices, even if I don't actually buy anything.

I still get pulled over by the cops even if I don't pay taxes.

the politician making decisions about my life whether I pay taxes or not.
Click to expand...

So the store didn’t just give you stuff huh? For free huh? Because maybe you didn’t contribute???


And a church is a charity. Gov is not designed to be a charity.
 
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