Georgia Tech @ Florida State

[VFL-82-JP]

He went 83-23 with a national title and 4 seasons ranked in the top 10 at FSU. He's got to do better at A&M, but he isn't mediocre.

Some coaches ride their predecessors' recruiting prowess, and get 2-4 good years before their relative mediocrity begins to show.

Other coaches ride their predecessors' system and culture, and can get 5-10 good years before it all wears off.

I think Jimbo may have been a beneficiary of the latter from Bobby Bowden. As long as he walked in Bobby's footsteps, didn't move the furniture around too much, and parroted Bobby as well as he could, things continued to go really well. But once he started feeling his oats and striking out in his own direction, he began to lose those benefits. Naturally, there is no benefit for him at all once he moves to a different university.

I could be wrong about that. But it seems to fit what we might be seeing. Too early to be sure, of course, give it two more years. If Jimbo's success at FSU was a result of his own strengths, he'll get things up to championship caliber at A&M. If he doesn't, then what A&M really needed was to hire Bobby Bowden instead.

We shall see.

 

[butchna]

Didnt watch the game. How did ryan johnson play???

Conducted a clinic on drive killing false start and personal foul penalties...but they won.

 

[05_never_again]

Some coaches ride their predecessors' recruiting prowess, and get 2-4 good years before their relative mediocrity begins to show.

Other coaches ride their predecessors' system and culture, and can get 5-10 good years before it all wears off.

I think Jimbo may have been a beneficiary of the latter from Bobby Bowden. As long as he walked in Bobby's footsteps, didn't move the furniture around too much, and parroted Bobby as well as he could, things continued to go really well. But once he started feeling his oats and striking out in his own direction, he began to lose those benefits. Naturally, there is no benefit for him at all once he moves to a different university.

I could be wrong about that. But it seems to fit what we might be seeing. Too early to be sure, of course, give it two more years. If Jimbo's success at FSU was a result of his own strengths, he'll get things up to championship caliber at A&M. If he doesn't, then what A&M really needed was to hire Bobby Bowden instead.

We shall see.

I don't think he rode Bowden's coattails at all; it isn't like Bowden left Jimbo a loaded program. FSU finished the season unranked in 3 of his last 4 seasons and his last top 10 team was in 2000. Bowden is the epitome of a great coach that stayed too long, and if anything the program needed a big revamp. Bowden built the program from nothing, sure, but it isn't like FSU was running with the big dogs when he retired.

Jimbo came in and recruited like a madman, way in excess of Bowden's final years and better than Florida, and once he got his QB he was able to win a title. The rails started to come off after that when he began feuding with the AD, wanted more money for facilities, etc., and personally I think he started checking out really shortly after that title. I think he thought winning a title there would make him the de facto dictator of the university, which would entitle him to anything he wanted (like Saban is at Alabama, Dabo is at Clemson, etc.), and when he found out it didn't he got pissed.

The difference now is that Jimbo is in the SEC West, which is just a wee bit harder than the ACC Atlantic was in the mid 2010s. Also, even at FSU it isn't like he showed up and won a title immediately.

 

[LouderVol]

Conducted a clinic on drive killing false start and personal foul penalties...but they won.

I remember them mentioning him as a big time transfer from Tennessee. That made me chuckle.

 

[butchna]

I remember them mentioning him as a big time transfer from Tennessee. That made me chuckle.

It makes you feel bad because he’s a good person and does all the things you want as a fan...except play well. Brett Kendrick model.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Some coaches ride their predecessors' recruiting prowess, and get 2-4 good years before their relative mediocrity begins to show.

Other coaches ride their predecessors' system and culture, and can get 5-10 good years before it all wears off.

I think Jimbo may have been a beneficiary of the latter from Bobby Bowden. As long as he walked in Bobby's footsteps, didn't move the furniture around too much, and parroted Bobby as well as he could, things continued to go really well. But once he started feeling his oats and striking out in his own direction, he began to lose those benefits. Naturally, there is no benefit for him at all once he moves to a different university.

I could be wrong about that. But it seems to fit what we might be seeing. Too early to be sure, of course, give it two more years. If Jimbo's success at FSU was a result of his own strengths, he'll get things up to championship caliber at A&M. If he doesn't, then what A&M really needed was to hire Bobby Bowden instead.

We shall see.

Yeah I disagree.

Bobby Bowden’s decline at FSU started at least 6 years before Jimbo got the HC job.

Urban Meyer came in and ate Bobby’s lunch in recruiting, while Bobby was making sure his son Jeff ran the offense into the ground as OC.

FSU had three 6-loss seasons and two 5-loss seasons in the 2000s before Jimbo took over.

Bowden is royalty in this state and deservedly so, but it was past his time to move on when he finally decided to do so.

Jimbo is an excellent coach who just so happens to compete in a division where three other schools have won national titles in the past 10 years. That level of competition doesn’t exist anywhere else in college football.

 

[05_never_again]

Yeah I disagree.

Bobby Bowden’s decline at FSU started at least 6 years before Jimbo got the HC job.

Urban Meyer came in and ate Bobby’s lunch in recruiting, while Bobby was making sure his son Jeff ran the offense into the ground as OC.

FSU had three 6-loss seasons and two 5-loss seasons in the 2000s before Jimbo took over.

Bowden is royalty in this state and deservedly so, but it was past his time to move on when he finally decided to do so.

Jimbo is an excellent coach who just so happens to compete in a division where three other schools have won national titles in the past 10 years. That level of competition doesn’t exist anywhere else in college football.

The thing that I keep coming back to with Jimbo is look at his "mediocre" 8-5 last year. Those 5 losses came to teams that finished the season ranked #2, #14, #8, #4, and #1. At the time A&M played those teams, they were ranked #1, #8, #1, #4, and #2. That's absolutely ridiculous. I think the only game result you could say they'd like to have back is Auburn. The margin of defeat in the LSU game was embarrassing, but it isn't like they could have realistically expected to win that game.

The "beef" with Jimbo is that he isn't being paid a guaranteed $75m to win only the games he's expected to. He's expected by his admin and his fans to win games where he's a clear underdog and widely expected by people outside the program to lose. At some point he's going to have to start upsetting people - he's going to come into a matchup with an Alabama or a Georgia as a 14 point underdog and he'll need to win. That's a difficult task, but it's also why he's being paid that kind of money. And needless to say, he really can't afford any slip-ups at all to the teams he's supposed to beat.

I think he's a really good coach, better than most people give him credit for, but he has a really hard job. Much harder than the FSU job was circa 2013.

 

[Glocker_Alum_2005]

Jury is still out on Norvell, obviously. FSU should have shown Fisher more love, but their expectations got inflated after 2013. Sufficed to say FSU would have faired better if Jimbo would have stayed. Now the OL needs a complete rebuild in order to compete with Clemson. TN knows all about that. As said before a strong FSU makes for a weaker Clemson, which helps TN recruiting. So Vol fans should hope FSU can get back to winning 9-10 games sooner than later.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Jury is still out on Norvell, obviously. FSU should have shown Fisher more love, but their expectations got inflated after 2013. Sufficed to say FSU would have faired better if Jimbo would have stayed. Now the OL needs a complete rebuild in order to compete with Clemson. TN knows all about that. As said before a strong FSU makes for a weaker Clemson, which helps TN recruiting. So Vol fans should hope FSU can get back to winning 9-10 games sooner than later.

The expectations at FSU under Jimbo were no different than expectations under Bowden in the 90s.

FSU couldn’t meet all of Jimbo’s demands for facility improvements because their money wasn’t right. They’re in worse shape financially now.

 

[05_never_again]

The expectations at FSU under Jimbo were no different than expectations under Bowden in the 90s.

FSU couldn’t meet all of Jimbo’s demands for facility improvements because their money wasn’t right. They’re in worse shape financially now.

Financially, how far are they behind UF or other SEC schools like Georgia or Auburn? I know they aren't as financially strong as them but not sure what the gap is.

 

[Dudleys87]

The expectations at FSU under Jimbo were no different than expectations under Bowden in the 90s.

FSU couldn’t meet all of Jimbo’s demands for facility improvements because their money wasn’t right. They’re in worse shape financially now.

Hard to believe that school is that far in the hole.

FSUs problem has always been win a championship yesterday and if they don’t move on.

 

[UTwild82]

I think FSU is reaping what they've sown by making a good 5 year decision (joining ACC) vs making the 100 year decision (SEC). The money difference is astounding, more natural rivalries in the SEC, and better cultural fit.

It's kind of funny, they had a perfect case study in Georgia Tech. Look at GT in the SEC vs what they've been in the ACC. FSU chose wrong and, well, here they are.

 

[05_never_again]

I think FSU is reaping what they've sown by making a good 5 year decision (joining ACC) vs making the 100 year decision (SEC). The money difference is astounding, more natural rivalries in the SEC, and better cultural fit.

It's kind of funny, they had a perfect case study in Georgia Tech. Look at GT in the SEC vs what they've been in the ACC. FSU chose wrong and, well, here they are.

I'm not sure Georgia Tech struggles because they're in the ACC versus the SEC. They would have had even less of a chance of being successful in the SEC than the ACC the way the competitive landscape has shaken out over the years. There's way more to it than just conference membership - being in the SEC hasn't helped Vandy be any more successful on the field. Joining the SEC hasn't made Arkansas or South Carolina a consistently good program. A&M has not become the national power they want to be (at least not yet) by joining.

Tech has never been a consistent football power, either as a member of the SEC, ACC, or independent.

I can't really prove any of this, but personally I think Tech hasn't been all that great athletically over the years because their leadership over time just hasn't thought of it as all that important for them as an institution. I don't think their fans/alumni demand greatness, or even care all that much about it, IMO. It isn't the easiest recruiting job - they are located in perhaps the best metro area in the country for recruiting, but it's a really strong academic school where the student population is something like 75% male. I went to the 2017 season opener and most of Tech's fans at the game were nerdy engineering kids playing on their phones, not to mention 90% of the stadium was orange. That was a big spot, playing against a ranked (at the time) SEC team, on Labor Day night, in the brand new Falcons stadium located a mile from their campus, but I don't think it was a big deal to them.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Hard to believe that school is that far in the hole.

FSUs problem has always been win a championship yesterday and if they don’t move on.

FSU’s athletic department was in the red over $200M...in 2018...before anyone knew what a disaster hire Willie Taggart would be.

A year later there were articles written stating FSU couldn’t fire Taggart because they could afford it.
Another reason why Florida State’s Willie Taggart isn’t on the hot seat: Money

As the story goes, FSU boosters raised about $20M for buyouts for Taggart and his staff. With a 2020 home schedule that included Clemson and UF, surely they could make some of that $$$ back right?

Then COVID-19 hit. They are hurting financially.

 

[Dudleys87]

FSU’s athletic department was in the red over $200M...in 2018...before anyone knew what a disaster hire Willie Taggart would be.

A year later there were articles written stating FSU couldn’t fire Taggart because they could afford it.
Another reason why Florida State’s Willie Taggart isn’t on the hot seat: Money

As the story goes, FSU boosters raised about $20M for buyouts for Taggart and his staff. With a 2020 home schedule that included Clemson and UF, surely they could make some of that $$$ back right?

Then COVID-19 hit. They are hurting financially.

200M?

Holy hell Batman.
I get all schools are hurting financially but why wasn’t someone held accountable and someone put in place to better manage budgets? There seems to be a lot more wrong at ShoesU than just the Budget.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

200M?

Holy hell Batman.
I get all schools are hurting financially but why wasn’t someone held accountable and someone put in place to better manage budgets? There seems to be a lot more wrong at ShoesU than just the Budget.

I actually had to Google it when a co-worker/FSU alum and booster threw that number out.

If you Google “FSU Athletic Department Debt” the actual figure is $201.9M as of 2018.

 

[UTwild82]

I'm not sure Georgia Tech struggles because they're in the ACC versus the SEC. They would have had even less of a chance of being successful in the SEC than the ACC the way the competitive landscape has shaken out over the years. There's way more to it than just conference membership - being in the SEC hasn't helped Vandy be any more successful on the field. Joining the SEC hasn't made Arkansas or South Carolina a consistently good program. A&M has not become the national power they want to be (at least not yet) by joining.

Tech has never been a consistent football power, either as a member of the SEC, ACC, or independent.

I can't really prove any of this, but personally I think Tech hasn't been all that great athletically over the years because their leadership over time just hasn't thought of it as all that important for them as an institution. I don't think their fans/alumni demand greatness, or even care all that much about it, IMO. It isn't the easiest recruiting job - they are located in perhaps the best metro area in the country for recruiting, but it's a really strong academic school where the student population is something like 75% male. I went to the 2017 season opener and most of Tech's fans at the game were nerdy engineering kids playing on their phones, not to mention 90% of the stadium was orange. That was a big spot, playing against a ranked (at the time) SEC team, on Labor Day night, in the brand new Falcons stadium located a mile from their campus, but I don't think it was a big deal to them.

You make good points and could very well be right. The only points I can offer are they had more success in the old Southern Conference and in the SEC than they've had since (granted, CFB was a different world 60's and before vs now). The other is I feel given the ties had had to playing in the SEC, I could see fans and alumni being more demanding of success to win those rivalry games. They don't really have a true rival in the ACC.

 

[UTwild82]

LW, not really related but just a random question I had. Why did Florida choose to keep the FSU rivalry rather than Miami? Was it a money thing (given Miami is apt to put 20K in the stands when they aren't winning championships)?

 

[05_never_again]

You make good points and could very well be right. The only points I can offer are they had more success in the old Southern Conference and in the SEC than they've had since (granted, CFB was a different world 60's and before vs now). The other is I feel given the ties had had to playing in the SEC, I could see fans and alumni being more demanding of success to win those rivalry games. They don't really have a true rival in the ACC.

I think that over time they've made an institutional decision to not emphasize football, and honestly I think that's because their fans, boosters, alumni, etc. don't necessarily demand greatness or being consistently competitive on a national level. They're just going off of the signals they receive from the folks who bring in money and write checks. It just isn't in their institutional culture to care a lot about sports; kind of like Vandy, Duke football, etc. Most of the student body are engineering nerds. As long as the athletic programs aren't a total embarrassment and bring negative publicity, they're OK with them not bringing a ton of positive publicity. And their basketball program just dinged for NCAA violations, so the appetite for going heavier into sports might be less than usual at this point.

Now, having said that, I think Tech is a school that could be good at athletics if they wanted to, with their location being a big reason why. However, they'd have to re-orient their institutional culture (de-emphasize academics to a certain extent, invest heavily in facilities and recruiting budgets, etc.), which is a long and hard undertaking, and they've have to convince different constituencies (boosters, admin people, etc.) to jump on board with it. I wouldn't put them in the same category as a school like Boston College, who I don't think could be good athletically even if they tried to.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

LW, not really related but just a random question I had. Why did Florida choose to keep the FSU rivalry rather than Miami? Was it a money thing (given Miami is apt to put 20K in the stands when they aren't winning championships)?

UF was always good for an attendance boost for Miami home games, so perhaps our leadership wasn’t interested in propping up their attendance numbers every other year.

When we did travel to Miami (and their fans to Gainesville), the atmosphere was always contentious. The UF-Miami rivalry has always had a nasty edge to it, and there were shortage of brawls inside and outside the stadium. It was like watching Bloods and Crips get drunk and tailgate together.

All that said, Spurrier tried keeping Miami on the schedule, but the 1992 divisional split and an 8-game conference schedule killed that idea. FSU was already our season finale, and it made sense to keep a high profile rivalry game before the SECCG.

It would have been scheduling suicide to keep both on the schedule.

 

[05_never_again]

UF was always good for an attendance boost for Miami home games, so perhaps our leadership wasn’t interested in propping up their attendance numbers every other year.

When we did travel to Miami (and their fans to Gainesville), the atmosphere was always contentious. The UF-Miami rivalry has always had a nasty edge to it, and there were shortage of brawls inside and outside the stadium. It was like watching Bloods and Crips get drunk and tailgate together.

All that said, Spurrier tried keeping Miami on the schedule, but the 1992 divisional split and an 8-game conference schedule killed that idea. FSU was already our season finale, and it made sense to keep a high profile rivalry game before the SECCG.

It would have been scheduling suicide to keep both on the schedule.

The difference in, let's say...style between the University of Miami and their fans has always been really funny to me. It's kind of like if Vandy had a rowdy, rough-looking group of fans with neck tats and necklaces.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

The difference in, let's say...style between the University of Miami and their fans has always been really funny to me. It's kind of like if Vandy had a rowdy, rough-looking group of fans with neck tats and necklaces.

Miami is to football what Georgetown is to basketball except with a better trophy case. 2 prestigious schools in big time cities with a 1 Star fan base that likes to beat their chest like it’s the 1980s all over again.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Miami is to football what Georgetown is to basketball except with a better trophy case. 2 prestigious schools in big time cities with a 1 Star fan base that likes to beat their chest like it’s the 1980s all over again.

Miami bandwagon football fans make 80s Georgetown bandwagon hoops fans look like...well, Georgetown students.

There is no comparison.

 

[05_never_again]

Miami bandwagon football fans make 80s Georgetown bandwagon hoops fans look like...well, Georgetown students.

There is no comparison.

When I was in college, I worked at a golf course and another dude I worked there with was a huge Miami fan. No ties to the school, the city, the state of Florida whatsoever, just loved the Miami Hurricanes. I asked him one day why he's a fan and he said "Because Miami is, without a doubt, the most successful college football program of all time." He wasn't kidding. I made some kind of comment about how other programs had more wins and more titles, and he responded "I'm going off of players in the NFL. We have more than anyone else." When I told him that wasn't true either (at the time I think LSU had the most), he said something like "But we've put the most players in the NFL who turn out to be 'really good.'" Then he went on some rant about Ed Reed for about 10 minutes, and Miami being the best program because they put "guys like him in the league." It was as if he thought no colleges other than Miami sent guys to the NFL.

I've known a lot of delusional fans in my day, but that might have been the most delusional thing I've heard any fan of any team say.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

When I was in college, I worked at a golf course and another dude I worked there with was a huge Miami fan. No ties to the school, the city, the state of Florida whatsoever, just loved the Miami Hurricanes. I asked him one day why he's a fan and he said "Because Miami is, without a doubt, the most successful college football program of all time." He wasn't kidding. I made some kind of comment about how other programs had more wins and more titles, and he responded "I'm going off of players in the NFL. We have more than anyone else." When I told him that wasn't true either (at the time I think LSU had the most), he said something like "But we've put the most players in the NFL who turn out to be 'really good.'" Then he went on some rant about Ed Reed for about 10 minutes, and Miami being the best program because they put "guys like him in the league." It was as if he thought no colleges other than Miami sent guys to the NFL.

I've known a lot of delusional fans in my day, but that might have been the most delusional thing I've heard any fan of any team say.

Yep, that’s a textbook bandwagon Miami fan.