Future Coach

#76

LeannaVol

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#76
Seems like Zo does most of the running before failure catches up to him. Left Tennessee in bad shape, left Cal in bad shape. Both before it became evident that the wheels were about to fall off.
I think it will be pretty telling where CM ends up after he leaves/ let go by Missouri. I bet he never lands another P-5 head coaching job again. That should tell us what people think about his coaching ability. I not a CM hater. He ran a clean program here and his players liked him. By all accounts a high integrity guy. Just not a good b-ball coach.
 
#78

cncchris33

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#78
I think it will be pretty telling where CM ends up after he leaves/ let go by Missouri. I bet he never lands another P-5 head coaching job again. That should tell us what people think about his coaching ability. I not a CM hater. He ran a clean program here and his players liked him. By all accounts a high integrity guy. Just not a good b-ball coach.
That's about how I feel, too. He should probably take the first opportunity that comes his way because he isn't long for his current job.
 
#79

cncchris33

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#79
Cuonzo left TN in worse shape AFTER he quit. As the ex-coach he did not encourage recruits or current players to honor their commitments to UT. If he stayed, he would have had a down year. But based on his improved recruiting at Cal and MZ he could have gotten TN back on track. He evolved and became a better recruiter. While at UT he would stop pursuing recruits that turned him down... honoring their decision and being too respectful to the program that they chose. At MZ he figured out how to work the gray area by giving an assistant's job to a highly rated recruit's father. He became more aggressive and successful. He still needed to learn how to build up team chemistry (without the us versus them BS that he used in year 3 at UT). He was signing big time players after exiting TN. But Barnes is in a whole different league as far as evaluating and managing players.

If Bruce hadn't been lurking around, Cuonzo's relationship with UT fans would have been far better. We have some idiot fans, but they are everywhere. Ours did themselves no favors with their stupid petition to rehire Bruce. That's not a good look... especially for recruits. If Bruce was a decent person he would have come out with a strong message that Cuonzo was the TN coach and the fans should support him. Instead he was a self serving attention who**. Cuonzo wasn't perfect either. He shopped himself around on UT's dime. He was in California crootin' for TN (right)... but was actually job hunting for himself. I don't want either of those two to ever coach at UT again. But as I said many posts ago, Cuonzo could have been successful at TN. Today he's damaged goods and should probably go back to the MM that he was at before jumping to TN/Cal/Mizz. But he is now about $20,000,000 wealthier. Well played, Cuonzo.
Agree with all the points on Pearl.

As to whether Zo could have turned Tennessee around after what was bound to be a bad 4th season at Tennessee, who knows? His recruiting and exposing those gray areas hasn't really helped him at Cal or Mizzou. He's landed some really good talent at both places but has underachieved with it, as well. And adding players' fathers to your staff to land them is very short-sighted and likely does more harm than good for the team.
 
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#80

BowlBrother85

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#80
TN Basketball all-time winning percentage: 61%

Cuonzo Martin's all time winning percentage: 59%
Who cares? We watched the games. We know that his offenses were slow and boring. Nothing ever comes easy for Cuonzo Martin teams on the offensive end. He had two NBA players in 2014 (McRae and Richardson) and had to go to OT in the First Four. That team underachieved, but was bailed out by a favorable draw in the NCAA Tournament (thanks to Mercer beating Duke). Martin's m.o. is to stay ahead of the ax, but he is going to have show a 4th season this time around... I don't think it's going to be pretty.
 
#81
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#81
Agree with all the points on Pearl.

As to whether Zo could have turned Tennessee around after what was bound to be a bad 4th season at Tennessee, who knows? His recruiting and exposing those gray areas hasn't really helped him at Cal or Mizzou. He's landed some really good talent at both places but has underachieved with it, as well. And adding players' fathers to your staff to land them is very short-sighted and likely does more harm than good for the team.
I think that there was a better opportunity at TN than Cal or MZ. He would have needed to adapt which is something that Devoe failed at. His discipline was fine on defense, but he needed to lighten up a bit and let the players have more freedom on offense. Some of his games were brutal... was it Georgetown when the first team to 40 got the win? It might have also been his team that was TN's first in many years to not make a 3 versus Duke (not sure that that was CCM's team without looking it up). I suggested that he needed an
assistant or two to enhance the Xs and Os. And his momentum killing TOs after huge made baskets to set up his defense were also brutal... the roof was about to come off of the TBA and there'd be Cuonzo shutting it down with his time out. BUT... Cuonzo was a pretty young coach at the time. Maybe he could have brought in better and better talent and have taken more if a roll the ball out and let them play approach.

I'm not saying that hiring players' dads as key assistants is a great idea, but at least it showed that he could work the gray areas of the rule book more aggressively.

He should be more like Devoe and go to one of the service academies. I don't even know if Army has a basketball program. I think that Air Force MIGHT.
 
#82
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#82
Who cares? We watched the games. We know that his offenses were slow and boring. Nothing ever comes easy for Cuonzo Martin teams on the offensive end. He had two NBA players in 2014 (McRae and Richardson) and had to go to OT in the First Four. That team underachieved, but was bailed out by a favorable draw in the NCAA Tournament (thanks to Mercer beating Duke). Martin's m.o. is to stay ahead of the ax, but he is going to have show a 4th season this time around... I don't think it's going to be pretty.
I was pointing out that despite posters saying that Cuonzo is AT BEST "not good", he still wins at a good, but not great, frequency. Maybe those saying that he is horrible or really bad should care.
 
#83

walkenvol

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#83
Huh? What was their attendance this year, guessing it wasn’t under 6,294? And the recruiting statement also doesn’t really make sense, did you base any of your statement on facts?


Attendance under Anderson:
2015- 8,064
2016- 6,294
2017- 9,930

Attendance under Zo:
2018- 15,061
2019- 10,253
2020-???

Recruiting under Anderson:
2014- 11th
2015- 49th
2016- 68th

Recruiting under Zo:
2017- 4th
2018- 59th
2019- 40th
2020- 153rd (only signed 1)
2021- 37th
Yes, my opinion is based on facts. There’s more to those statistics. Per the Kansas City Star, in 2018 MZ quit reporting turnstile count and started reporting tickets sold which increased their reported attendance by 53.2% without any more folks showing up. In their televised games it was shocking to me the empty seats on the screen which I didn’t see in any of the other SEC broadcasts. I read another article during the season addressing why attendance at games was at a 30 year low with the numbers in the 5,300 range IIRC.

Also, the recruiting rankings appear better due to 2017’s #4 class in which Counzo hired Michael Porter and got his 5* sons. The best one only played 3 games and Jontay (who was a fine player) was a one and done so he really didn’t get much from that 2017 class. All his other recruiting classes average 72.

They’ve made one NCAA tournament appearance during his 4 years and they weren’t going this year either. I’d say barring some crazy buyout in his contract that his seat at MZ is very hot.
 
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#84

cncchris33

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#84
Yes, my opinion is based on facts. There’s more to those statistics. Per the Kansas City Star, in 2018 MZ quit reporting turnstile count and started reporting tickets sold which increased their reported attendance by 53.2% without any more folks showing up. In their televised games it was shocking to me the empty seats on the screen which I didn’t see in any of the other SEC broadcasts. I read another article during the season addressing why attendance at games was at a 30 year low with the numbers in the 5,300 range IIRC.

Also, the recruiting rankings appear better due to 2017’s #4 class in which Counzo hired Michael Porter and got his 5* sons. The best one only played 3 games and Jontay (who was a fine player) was a one and done so he really didn’t get much from that 2017 class. All his other recruiting classes average 72.

They’ve made one NCAA tournament appearance during his 4 years and they weren’t going this year either. I’d say barring some crazy buyout in his contract that his seat at MZ is very hot.
Per his contract, there was no way Mizzou could fire him before 5/1/2020. It wasn't allowable without cause. If he is fired before that same date in 2021, he is owed $6 million, which drops to $3 million in 2022, $1 million in 2023, and $300k in the final year.
 
#85

bleedingTNorange

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#85
Yes, my opinion is based on facts. There’s more to those statistics. Per the Kansas City Star, in 2018 MZ quit reporting turnstile count and started reporting tickets sold which increased their reported attendance by 53.2% without any more folks showing up. In their televised games it was shocking to me the empty seats on the screen which I didn’t see in any of the other SEC broadcasts. I read another article during the season addressing why attendance at games was at a 30 year low with the numbers in the 5,300 range IIRC.

Also, the recruiting rankings appear better due to 2017’s #4 class in which Counzo hired Michael Porter and got his 5* sons. The best one only played 3 games and Jontay (who was a fine player) was a one and done so he really didn’t get much from that 2017 class. All his other recruiting classes average 72.

They’ve made one NCAA tournament appearance during his 4 years and they weren’t going this year either. I’d say barring some crazy buyout in his contract that his seat at MZ is very hot.
How many NCAAT did Anderson make?
 
#86

LeannaVol

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#86
Yes, my opinion is based on facts. There’s more to those statistics. Per the Kansas City Star, in 2018 MZ quit reporting turnstile count and started reporting tickets sold which increased their reported attendance by 53.2% without any more folks showing up. In their televised games it was shocking to me the empty seats on the screen which I didn’t see in any of the other SEC broadcasts. I read another article during the season addressing why attendance at games was at a 30 year low with the numbers in the 5,300 range IIRC.

Also, the recruiting rankings appear better due to 2017’s #4 class in which Counzo hired Michael Porter and got his 5* sons. The best one only played 3 games and Jontay (who was a fine player) was a one and done so he really didn’t get much from that 2017 class. All his other recruiting classes average 72.

They’ve made one NCAA tournament appearance during his 4 years and they weren’t going this year either. I’d say barring some crazy buyout in his contract that his seat at MZ is very hot.
Can’t remember what game it was that I watched but it was an SEC game and their crowd or lack of was shocking. Lots of apathy right now around Missouri basketball. Having Anderson and now CM as head coaches have really killed that program.
 
#87

cncchris33

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#87
Can’t remember what game it was that I watched but it was an SEC game and their crowd or lack of was shocking. Lots of apathy right now around Missouri basketball. Having Anderson and now CM as head coaches have really killed that program.
It is basically the Mizzou version of Wade Houston-Kevin O'Neill era with an NCAAT appearance.
 
#89

bleedingTNorange

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#89
Your first 2 points didn’t work so now your moving the goal posts looking for another? CCM is very pedestrian and is proven to not be a program builder. Nothing against him as a person, but he doesn’t get the job done at the P5 level
The first 2 points check out, can’t point out the #4 class CCM had and ignore the #11 Anderson got...goes both ways. And again, attendance was better under CCM. You’re the one that mentioned NCAAT, which CCM has the upper hand in that category too.

I’m not at all trying to say that CCM is doing some great job, but to act as if he’s been worse than Kim Anderson is beyond a horrendous take.
 
#90
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#90
It is basically the Mizzou version of Wade Houston-Kevin O'Neill era with an NCAAT appearance.
Cuonzo kind of reminds me of a polite KO. Demanded near perfection from his defenses while the offenses would struggle to throw the basketball into the TN River. They're also the 2 UT coaches that got upset and ran away while leaving the program on shaky ground.

I barely even consider Wade Houston to have been a coach at UT. He had a great player as a son and he seemed to be a part-time HC while his trucking business took much of his attention. Wade seems like a great guy though. And he was a very good assistant coach and recruiter for Denny Crum. I've posted many times before... I wonder how the 1990s would have played out if the other finalist had won the job? Leonard Hamilton. Also, how would things have played out had Dickey's first choice taken the job? Pat Kennedy. Thanks Lamar. You suck.
 
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#91

cncchris33

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#91
Cuonzo kind of reminds me of a polite KO. Demanded near perfection from his defenses while the offenses would struggle to throw the basketball into the TN River. They're also the 2 UT coaches that got upset and ran away while leaving the program on shaky ground.

I barely even consider Wade Houston to have been a coach at UT. He had a great player as a son and he seemed to be a part-time HC while his trucking business took much of his attention. Wade seems like a great guy though. And he was a very good assistant coach and recruiter for Denny Crum. I've posted many times before... I wonder how the 1990s would have played out if the other finalist had won the job? Leonard Hamilton. Also, how would things have played out had Dickey's first choice taken the job? Pat Kennedy. Thanks Lamar. You suck.
Agree on the Zo/O’Neill comp. That is actually why I thought the two timeframes matched so well.
 
#93

walkenvol

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#93
The first 2 points check out, can’t point out the #4 class CCM had and ignore the #11 Anderson got...goes both ways. And again, attendance was better under CCM. You’re the one that mentioned NCAAT, which CCM has the upper hand in that category too.

I’m not at all trying to say that CCM is doing some great job, but to act as if he’s been worse than Kim Anderson is beyond a horrendous take.
Turnstile attendance is worse under CCM per the articles I’ve read and the shocking number of empty seats that show on the tv support that. If the outlier #4 class is examined fairly, then it was no where near the #4 class since the top recruit was injured the whole season and wasn’t able to play. A fair review of the data indicates MZ is on a downward trend since 2018. My original point was CCM leaves programs in worse shape and I believe that is the trajectory he has MZ headed at this point. As was pointed out by Chris, CCM’s buyout is significant so he may get a couple more years to turn it around and not repeat the failures at UT and Cal.
 

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