For Those Who are Critical of Our Scheme

#26
#26
ntxVOL said:
Stats don't mean crap to me.

When we have a 14 point lead in the 4th quarter how about a couple of first downs to burn some clock. Our offense let us down at crucial times last season, either fix it or scrap the whole system and try something new.

The win column is the only stat that really matters.
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Lol
 
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#27
#27
We may never know how good or how bad he would have been. Only thing about comparing the Georgia games is that Georgia invented Clemsoning. Never could tell if we played up to them or down to us haha.
 
#28
#28
Nasavol said:
I was wondering who would be the 1st to say that. The thing people have to remember is that Central Michigan had the same level of players the rest of the MAC had. In other words, Butch wasn't playing with SEC caliber players in the MAC. So the "level of competition" argument doesn't hold water.
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While that is true, you have to remember that the field stays the same size even though the players are much much faster at this level. A good scheme should get your skill players in one on one match ups that they can take advantage of. If everyone is faster then it closes those windows of one on one time.

At the G5 level if you run a 15 yard out and get the safety to bite on the play action then he won't be able to catch back up to the play so the receiver is either open or one on one with no one covering deep. Now do that against Bama and that safety will get back to the receiver a heck of a lot quicker shrinking the window for the QB.
 
#29
#29
Titan&Volfan4life said:
Offset I is a formation I have a feeling we'll see a bit more of this season when teams least expect it and are least ready to defend it.

I think seeing it in the Bowl game was a sample of practice in real game conditions to see how well it would work.

Methinks DeBord is slowly getting buTch to let him do a little more of what he sees can work well with the talent on the O he has to work with.

Don't be surprised if you see some more good surprises this season as the season moves along and we need a new twist to get the WIN.

I still think we'll stay as vanilla as we can and for as long as we can and still get the WIN.

We want the surprises to come out only when we really need some things to pull out the WIN.

WIN by WIN Team 120 will earn their respect and national ranking...VFL...GBO!!!
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I can see this, the few wrinkles on offense in the bowl game has gotten me really excited, the TE passes
And also the power run game under center.. It's almost here fellas..
 
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#30
#30
butchna said:
Just loved some of the breakdowns by that Wordpress dude on here...especially the OL. Lot more pulling by our guards and Thomas but done aggressively. :aggressive: Agree with you that DeBord used the bowl practice and bowl game as a litmus test for that formation. They implemented it in a month and it was seamless. Opens up play action possibilities for Dobbs yet still adds a punch first facet to our offense.
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https://thefootballconcepts.com/

https://thefootballconcepts.com/books/
 
#31
#31
The only scheme I'm not happy with is the one where we get a 17pt lead and then lay down the rest of the game.
 
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#32
#32
08Vol said:
While that is true, you have to remember that the field stays the same size even though the players are much much faster at this level. A good scheme should get your skill players in one on one match ups that they can take advantage of. If everyone is faster then it closes those windows of one on one time.

At the G5 level if you run a 15 yard out and get the safety to bite on the play action then he won't be able to catch back up to the play so the receiver is either open or one on one with no one covering deep. Now do that against Bama and that safety will get back to the receiver a heck of a lot quicker shrinking the window for the QB.
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But you've got a P5 QB throwing to a P5 receiver. So...even Steven?
 
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#33
#33
butchna said:
Two years and we played Georgia straight up and bested South Carolina twice...that is a glimpse. Just saw more adjustments and innovations in a few DeBord coached games than Jake's entire tenure.
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This. Its seemed like forever since we had an OC that could make in-game adjustments the way Debord does. And it seemed like he even improved at that as the season played out.
 
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#35
#35
Smokey49 said:
But you've got a P5 QB throwing to a P5 receiver. So...even Steven?
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Not exactly. Think of it this way, look at an overhead shot of the field when the teams are lined up. For each defender draw a circle around them of the distance they can cover in 2 seconds, so if they ran forward full speed 2 seconds that would be the front of the circle, backwards full speed would be the back, etc. To have an effective offense you want your player with the ball or who is going to get the ball to be outside of as many of those circles as possible. The size of the circle is affected by physical things (O-linemen, your own players, the side line, the back of the end zone) and mental things (pump fakes, reverses, crossing patterns, QB keepers, knowing which man you're covering).

Since a football field is a set size, no matter the level of competition, a scheme may work better at G5 than P5 programs. When you have faster players on defense then a lot more circles overlap because there is only so far that they can go and still be in bounds.

Look at the infamous jet sweep we tried running for 2 years. The play stalls the defenders as they have to wait and see if the ball is handed off. With slower defenders this means they can't get to the side of the field in time to stop the ball carrier. However faster defenders can wait for the handoff and still make it to the correct side of the field. The reason it didn't work, even tho our players were faster too is there is only a limited amount of field. If the field was 20 yards wider then the jet sweep would have worked perfectly, but the sideline is a defender that stops it.
 
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#36
#36
08Vol said:
Not exactly. Think of it this way, look at an overhead shot of the field when the teams are lined up. For each defender draw a circle around them of the distance they can cover in 2 seconds, so if they ran forward full speed 2 seconds that would be the front of the circle, backwards full speed would be the back, etc. To have an effective offense you want your player with the ball or who is going to get the ball to be outside of as many of those circles as possible. The size of the circle is affected by physical things (O-linemen, your own players, the side line, the back of the end zone) and mental things (pump fakes, reverses, crossing patterns, QB keepers, knowing which man you're covering).

Since a football field is a set size, no matter the level of competition, a scheme may work better at G5 than P5 programs. When you have faster players on defense then a lot more circles overlap because there is only so far that they can go and still be in bounds.

Look at the infamous jet sweep we tried running for 2 years. The play stalls the defenders as they have to wait and see if the ball is handed off. With slower defenders this means they can't get to the side of the field in time to stop the ball carrier. However faster defenders can wait for the handoff and still make it to the correct side of the field. The reason it didn't work, even tho our players were faster too is there is only a limited amount of field. If the field was 20 yards wider then the jet sweep would have worked perfectly, but the sideline is a defender that stops it.
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Your leaving out 1 thing in your circle (theory?). The circle around the offensive player. you keep pointing to the jet sweep, well that is just a badly designed play to run against more athletic fronts. Has nothing to do with circles and competition levels in G5 v P5.
 
#37
#37
Nasavol said:
I was wondering who would be the 1st to say that. The thing people have to remember is that Central Michigan had the same level of players the rest of the MAC had. In other words, Butch wasn't playing with SEC caliber players in the MAC. So the "level of competition" argument doesn't hold water.
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Lefevour and Antonio Brown were well above their MAC competition. Even with the huge passing stats they lost 13 games in 3 years.
 
#38
#38
Nasavol said:
a badly designed play to run against more athletic
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That right there is exactly what this thread is about. A play that worked at lower levels but didn't at this level due to the change in speed/athleticism on defense. That play works at the G5 level going against slower teams. Thankfully our new OC saw that and got rid of it.

Look at it this way, there are a few fast players on G5 teams, there are a lot of fast players on SEC teams, all NFL players are fast. The guy Butch had running that play at CMU was probably close to the speed of Pig when he was running it. He was also probably one of the fastest guys on the field. The offensive players speed didn't increase that much but the speed of all the defenders did.
 
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#39
#39
Our offense will look as good as our offensive line can make it look. Line play is paramount in this league. Too many folks overlook this truth. Our offense as a whole will continue to progress as we increase our overall talent level. Prematurely judging our scheme while we've been trying to acquire the SEC level talent it will require to run it may be a mistake.

The JET SWEEP -- Percy Harvin or Reggie Bush speed can do just fine on a jet sweep, but NOT Pig Howard speed. Called against the right front and blocked properly, the jet sweep (as are most plays), is as good a play as any.

The position I'm most looking forward to see in fall camp is the o-line. If they can block up the big boys from Florida, Georgia & Bama were going to have the type of season we all want.
 
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#40
#40
ScornedPapaVol said:
Our offense will look as good as our offensive line can make it look. Line play is paramount in this league. Too many folks overlook this truth. Our offense as a whole will continue to progress as we increase our overall talent level. Prematurely judging our scheme while we've been trying to acquire the SEC level talent it will require to run it may be a mistake.

The JET SWEEP -- Percy Harvin or Reggie Bush speed can do just fine on a jet sweep, but NOT Pig Howard speed. Called against the right front and blocked properly, the jet sweep (as are most plays), is as good a play as any.

The position I'm most looking forward to see in fall camp is the o-line. If they can block up the big boys from Florida, Georgia & Bama were going to have the type of season we all want.
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If a play requires one of the most dynamic college athletes to work then it doesn't work. For 2 years our coaches looked at our offense and thought it would work even tho it was clear we didn't have anyone dynamic enough to pull it off. Luckily that has been changing under DeBord. If Butch and DeBord can't get their scheme to work this year then it probably never will. The talent and recruiting are leveling off and we won't see a spike unless there is an SEC/national championship
 
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#41
#41
Didn't we average nearly 40pts/game and was 2nd in the SEC in rushing in 2015? With the bulk of talent being freshmen/sophomores? Behind an Oline that just the year before was an all time kinda bad?

The jet sweep stunk it up but obviously Debo seen that when he took over and killed it.

They put up a lot of points on some solid defenses this past year. The top level teams did adjust after halftime most games and slowed the offense down but your talking about a completely one dimensional offense last year with an Oline that was avg, without Pig(which I think was a big blow to our down field passing game) or a healthy North, and Von being out of sync and not up to what he couldve been and Dobbs with his shortcomings made a bad combo IMO.

Idk if this scheme will work out in the long run but neither does anybody else. They haven't had junior/senior guys with equal talent to the elite teams in the SEC across the board and had one hand behind their back with the woe's in the passing game.

This year should be the year we all know if this scheme is gona cut it or not as long as the team stays relatively healthy.
 
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#42
#42
08Vol said:
If a play requires one of the most dynamic college athletes to work then it doesn't work. For 2 years our coaches looked at our offense and thought it would work even tho it was clear we didn't have anyone dynamic enough to pull it off. Luckily that has been changing under DeBord. If Butch and DeBord can't get their scheme to work this year then it probably never will. The talent and recruiting are leveling off and we won't see a spike unless there is an SEC/national championship
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Short-sighted post, to say the least.

It's not that plays/schemes require elite players. It's that teams need comparable talent (and normally experience) to their competition.
 
#44
#44
butchna said:
Just loved some of the breakdowns by that Wordpress dude on here...especially the OL. Lot more pulling by our guards and Thomas but done aggressively. :aggressive: Agree with you that DeBord used the bowl practice and bowl game as a litmus test for that formation. They implemented it in a month and it was seamless. Opens up play action possibilities for Dobbs yet still adds a punch first facet to our offense.
Click to expand...

https://thefootballconcepts.com/201...eers-destroyed-the-wildcats-part-3/#more-1286

:hi:
 
#45
#45
butchna said:
Don't disagree but you do have to factor in level of competition. Bajakian called effective games at CMU and Cincy. Why did he flop in the SEC...yes, he flopped.
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Bajakian didn't have the pieces in place. the O line was a sieve. Worley was a sitting duck behind them. Dobbs lacked the arm and the experience. The running game couldn't get started because of same offensive line. Sorry, I don't place the sole blame on CMB for pedestrian offensive numbers for his time at Tennessee.
 
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#46
#46
vtvol98 said:
Bajakian didn't have the pieces in place. the O line was a sieve. Worley was a sitting duck behind them. Dobbs lacked the arm and the experience. The running game couldn't get started because of same offensive line. Sorry, I don't place the sole blame on CMB for pedestrian offensive numbers for his time at Tennessee.
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I do. I don't think he did a good job at that offensive coordinating thing. :)
 
#48
#48
GAVol said:
Hard to really evaluate Bajakian given the hand he was dealt.
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Respectfully disagree!

S. Alabama game in 2013 was a terrible plan

Vandy 2013 after an open week to have a chance at 6-6 and a Bowl game was a terrible game plan....10 points against VANDY?????

Fla game in 2013...even with Hunter's injury...left Baj looking like a deer caught in headlights....he gets a little bit of a reprieve there...but still poor ability to adjust...

OK game in 2014 was very poor in adjustments to Stryker....Coach B. NEVER did anything to neutralize his weak-side blitzes...NOTHING....

Fla game in 2014 was simply the WORST EXCUSE of a game plan and in-game offensive coaching I've almost ever seen....

In fact--the ONLY upper tier team Baj had any success against was UGA....

:salute:
 
#49
#49
butchna said:
I do. I don't think he did a good job at that offensive coordinating thing. :)
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Nonsense!

Running the read option, with a statue at QB, for 2 consecutive years, putting the ball in the RB's belly, while standing still...... generating 0 momentum, behind a sub-par (at best) O-line, was a stroke of football genius.

It was so illogical, I couldn't believe it myself!
 
#50
#50
The reason for my post is to point out that with the right triggerman, and the right pieces in place, that this offensive scheme is capable of putting up 250 yds passing and 200 yds on the ground per game.

If we hit those numbers this year we will be in Atlanta.

Gotta look farther than just Butch to really see it, look at the numbers Rich Rod is putting up in AZ. (Against P5 competition 08)
 
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