For those still on the fence about Jones....

#326
#326
chargervol said:
But it doesn't change anything.
Most of the season was over. If Peterman would have been even serviceable, which he definitely appeared to be in practice, Dobbs is eligible another entire year.

Had it been Dobbs v Peterman to start in the beginning of the season, it's worth arguing about. Not after 3/4 of the season is over. Peterman started for 1 lousy quarter, then the adjustment was made. That means nothing.
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I think the Alabama game would have been much closer and more interesting in the 4th quarter if Dobbs had have gotten the start. Additionally, I think there is a good chance we win the Georgia game if Dobbs come on in relief of Worley instead of Peterman for the couple of series that Worley was out in that game.
 
#327
#327
In short, I have total faith in Butch because of all he's done to get the program where it is now. I have zero doubt the wins will come. All he's done is win everywhere he's been.
 
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#328
#328
Brave Volunteer said:
He's done just about everything right except put the wins in the win column and ultimately that's ALL that matters. That is what he and every head coach will be judged on. I'm not going to be "full Butch" until he shows us evidence of getting it done on the field. Starting this year, 8-9 wins should be the absolute floor for this program and we HAVE to start seeing some signature wins against teams that have been kicking our ass for far too long! Until I see this, I'm not full anything.
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sometimes we can't or don't want to see the forest for the trees BV. Wins are coming and I agree this year should be 8 minimum. He is building something at UT and I think it is going to be very special....may be another year before the results are to the point that will make doubters and fence sitters happy.

How many of you are in the camp that would have fired Saban from MSU....Beamer from VT? Think about it.
 
#329
#329
JC61 said:
sometimes we can't or don't want to see the forest for the trees BV. Wins are coming and I agree this year should be 8 minimum. He is building something at UT and I think it is going to be very special....may be another year before the results are to the point that will make doubters and fence sitters happy.

How many of you are in the camp that would have fired Saban from MSU....Beamer from VT? Think about it.
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Who's said anything about firing Butch? All agree that he's been exceptional off the field and will win on the field....the question is how much/to what extent? Some think he's destined to win big, win titles because of that off the field work. Others see 2 bad losses, a bunch of blowout losses and 12-13 record his first 2 seasons and still have some questions/doubts. Nobody wants him fired.
 
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#330
#330
ReaderVol said:
In short, I have total faith in Butch because of all he's done to get the program where it is now. I have zero doubt the wins will come. All he's done is win everywhere he's been.
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Yeah... we were all trying to figure out where you stand. Thanks for the clarification. :birgits_giggle:
 
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#331
#331
Even if he's the best "builder"... that doesn't make him the best to use what's built. The latter is the part he's yet to prove.
 
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#332
#332
checkerboards09 said:
As we all know, WINS are what make or break a coaching career. I happen to still be one of those on the fence about Jones until I see results on the field, which should be understandable. Looking at the big picture, for me, 3-1 with the loss being to Oklahoma or 4-0 would get me on the wagon 100%. Jones has been incredible with everything else, he's bringing in the talent, etc., but the big wins gotta start early this year with the Gators being right there. For those still in doubt, what point in the season would get you fully on board?
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I've been fully on board since the day he was hired. What other choice is there? If he sucks he will get canned eventually. So far he's proven he does not suck at what he does.
 
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#334
#334
KBVol said:
Who's said anything about firing Butch? All agree that he's been exceptional off the field and will win on the field....the question is how much/to what extent? Some think he's destined to win big, win titles because of that off the field work. Others see 2 bad losses, a bunch of blowout losses and 12-13 record his first 2 seasons and still have some questions/doubts. Nobody wants him fired.
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KB, it is implied in various responses in this thread and others...maybe not by you but it's out there "if" he doesn't reach whatever metric some folks have stated.

Most can see what he is doing off the field, and the attitude and culture on the team is light years ahead of where it was 2 years ago. All I'm trying to say is he has the work ethic and enough intelligence to be a very good game day coach.
 
#336
#336
KBVol said:
Who's said anything about firing Butch? All agree that he's been exceptional off the field and will win on the field....the question is how much/to what extent? Some think he's destined to win big, win titles because of that off the field work. Others see 2 bad losses, a bunch of blowout losses and 12-13 record his first 2 seasons and still have some questions/doubts. Nobody wants him fired.
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But what makes me and others scratch our heads is that some seem surprised at the record we've had the past to seasons. It's like being disappointed in a horse trainer for not winning the triple crown year one or two when all you have in the stable is a bunch of plow horses.
Most outsiders who know football see next year as the year we really break out.
 
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#339
#339
sjt18 said:
Yeah... we were all trying to figure out where you stand. Thanks for the clarification. :birgits_giggle:
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If people aren't smart enough to NOT be on the fence about Butch I won't assume they have enough sense to understand where I stand.
 
#341
#341
ReaderVol said:
He has won everywhere he's been.
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No he hasn't. He hasn't won at UT... which is frankly all I care about. Kragthorpe was once one of the hottest names out there... until he stepped up in competition at L'ville. He's now an Admin Asst at LSU.

Dan Hawkins was great at Williamette. He gets much credit for putting Boise St on the map. He was 93-22 in those two stops with 7 conference titles in 10 seasons. He stepped up to Colorado in the Big 12... a move that basically ended his career. He was 19-39 before being fired. He had a short unsuccessful career in the CFL.

Clawson's O's prior to UT were potent. We all know about his short tenure at UT... but his O's also avg'd mid-pack in the MAC over his tenure there.

The point here is that success at a lower level is far from a guarantee of success at a higher level.

Your "faith" is fine... some of us need evidence that he can get it done on game day before having "faith".
 
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#342
#342
ReaderVol said:
If people aren't smart enough to NOT be on the fence about Butch I won't assume they have enough sense to understand where I stand.
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Your stand is that you have made an emotional decision to believe everything will be great and dismiss anything to the contrary. That doesn't make you "smart".
 
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#344
#344
ReaderVol said:
B. It's like being disappointed in a horse trainer for not winning the triple crown year one or two when all you have in the stable is a bunch of plow horses.
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No. It is nothing like that at all.

Most outsiders who know football see next year as the year we really break out.
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Yes. Most think next year is a more likely point for UT to WIN the East or SEC.

But most also are "smart" enough to know that this is an 8 win team if coached well AND that "break outs" don't go 5-7, 7-6, 7-6, SEC Champ.

If he can't get 8 wins out of this team considering the schedule then there's no good reason to believe he can get 10+ to win the SEC next year.

I have relatively high confidence that DeBord will be a good hire and that UT will win 8+. But we still need to see it.
 
#345
#345
sjt18 said:
Your stand is that you have made an emotional decision to believe everything will be great and dismiss anything to the contrary. That doesn't make you "smart".
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You intimated that Butch had to win six games his first year or his job should be in trouble. I've worked on you enough that you come across a lot less goofy these days. I see my project's not quite finished yet. :hmm:
 
#346
#346
sjt18 said:
No he hasn't. He hasn't won at UT... which is frankly all I care about. Kragthorpe was once one of the hottest names out there... until he stepped up in competition at L'ville. He's now an Admin Asst at LSU.

Dan Hawkins was great at Williamette. He gets much credit for putting Boise St on the map. He was 93-22 in those two stops with 7 conference titles in 10 seasons. He stepped up to Colorado in the Big 12... a move that basically ended his career. He was 19-39 before being fired. He had a short unsuccessful career in the CFL.

Clawson's O's prior to UT were potent. We all know about his short tenure at UT... but his O's also avg'd mid-pack in the MAC over his tenure there.

The point here is that success at a lower level is far from a guarantee of success at a higher level.

Your "faith" is fine... some of us need evidence that he can get it done on game day before having "faith".
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He has done a damned good job at UT in a short 2 years. And there are no guarantees but if a guy wins at every level he's been it's a good indicator that he will continue. How long had it been since UT had a winning season prior to Butch? How long had it been since UT had beaten a ranked team prior to Butch? How long had it been since UT beat an SEC team not named UK or Vandy on the road prior to Butch? How long had it been that UT signed back to back top 5 classes prior to Butch? How long has it been since UT was ranked in top 25 in coaches and AP prior to Butch.
If some of y'all are unable to see the phenomenal progress this program has made in 2 short years then there's no logic in how you "think".
 
#347
#347
Brave Volunteer said:
Faith is believing without evidence. If you wait until after he proves it on the field it's no longer faith, it's just knowing.
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No. Faith isn't baseless, blind, or without evidence.

The proof I personally need to have "faith" that Jones can win at UT is 8+ wins. I believe that will show a reasonable amount of progress. It still won't show that he's a championship level coach. It will point to it though. So far, we have some positive but also some significant negative evidence.
 
#348
#348
sjt18 said:
No. It is nothing like that at all.



Yes. Most think next year is a more likely point for UT to WIN the East or SEC.

But most also are "smart" enough to know that this is an 8 win team if coached well AND that "break outs" don't go 5-7, 7-6, 7-6, SEC Champ.

If he can't get 8 wins out of this team considering the schedule then there's no good reason to believe he can get 10+ to win the SEC next year.

I have relatively high confidence that DeBord will be a good hire and that UT will win 8+. But we still need to see it.
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UT was an absolute rebuild and he's done a helluva job thus far.
And if you will read you will see I think this is an 8 win team this year.
 
#349
#349
sjt18 said:
Your stand is that you have made an emotional decision to believe everything will be great and dismiss anything to the contrary. That doesn't make you "smart".
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Not emotion at all there Dr Phil. Logic is how I make decisions.
 
#350
#350
sjt18 said:
No. Faith isn't baseless, blind, or without evidence.

The proof I personally need to have "faith" that Jones can win at UT is 8+ wins. I believe that will show a reasonable amount of progress. It still won't show that he's a championship level coach. It will point to it though. So far, we have some positive but also some significant negative evidence.
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Lol what significant negative?
 
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