Finals thread.

#177
#177
bentenn said:
No, the big man gets the ball and scores, ask Kobe how much a big man helps, he won with shaq and gasol, not because of fisher
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Are we talking about kobe and the lakers with a hof coach and one of the dominant big men of his time?
Or are you talking about the 2012 Heat in a guard dominated league.
 
#178
#178
Spartacavolus said:
First, I didn't say that was a good idea. I missed a few minutes in the game. Was Durant already on his way to going off? Or did he just start when Wade was on him?

But lebron still only had 2 buckets and he is on the floor for all 12:00.
He has to take the ball and take over. That responsibility is on him. If you lose, lose because durant got hot and you didn't. Don't lose because you didn't try to take over.
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If I remember correctly a lot of what he did was with Wade guarding him, which was a horrible coaching move.
 
#179
#179
GahLee said:
If I remember correctly a lot of what he did was with Wade guarding him, which was a horrible coaching move.
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I asked because I wondered if durant was already hot and Wade may have asked for him. If he was already rolling, what's the difference who was guarding. If he got rolling right when Wade was put on him, that's a terrible decision, obviously.
 
#180
#180
Spartacavolus said:
Are we talking about kobe and the lakers with a hof coach and one of the dominant big men of his time?
Or are you talking about the 2012 Heat in a guard dominated league.
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Centers are still essential in winning a title, who's the last team to win it without a quality center? And look at the teams with the great guards you speak of, Miami, Chicago, Cleveland with Lebron, the Nuggets with Carmelo...they cant get past teams with a center
 
#181
#181
Spartacavolus said:
I asked because I wondered if durant was already hot and Wade may have asked for him. If he was already rolling, what's the difference who was guarding. If he got rolling right when Wade was put on him, that's a terrible decision, obviously.
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He was scoring on Battier just as much
 
#182
#182
bentenn said:
Centers are still essential in winning a title, who's the last team to win it without a quality center? And look at the teams with the great guards you speak of, Miami, Chicago, Cleveland with Lebron, the Nuggets with Carmelo...they cant get past teams with a center
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Melo isn't a guard. Rose tore his ACL..
 
#184
#184
The biggest problem with Miami isn't that they need a point guard or a big man, as badly as they need both. The biggest problem is that Wade is a shadow of what he used to be. I don't know if he's hurt or just prematurely old or both, but he's just awful now. LeBron apparently chained himself to a sinking ship.

I didn't really watch the Heaters play much this year until the playoffs, and that's been the most astonishing thing to me. How bad Wade is. He can't hit a jumper to save his life, yet he keeps heaving them up over and over and over.
 
#185
#185
Vercingetorix said:
The biggest problem with Miami isn't that they need a point guard or a big man, as badly as they need both. The biggest problem is that Wade is a shadow of what he used to be. I don't know if he's hurt or just prematurely old or both, but he's just awful now. LeBron apparently chained himself to a sinking ship.

I didn't really watch the Heaters play much this year until the playoffs, and that's been the most astonishing thing to me. How bad Wade is. He can't hit a jumper to save his life, yet he keeps heaving them up over and over and over.
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He really should never take a three, either.

Honestly, with how fearless and great at taking it to the hole through contact Wade always was, it may have put some years on him. Can't really help that.
 
#186
#186
Vercingetorix said:
The biggest problem with Miami isn't that they need a point guard or a big man, as badly as they need both. The biggest problem is that Wade is a shadow of what he used to be. I don't know if he's hurt or just prematurely old or both, but he's just awful now. LeBron apparently chained himself to a sinking ship.

I didn't really watch the Heaters play much this year until the playoffs, and that's been the most astonishing thing to me. How bad Wade is. He can't hit a jumper to save his life, yet he keeps heaving them up over and over and over.
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Was Wade ever a great jump shooter? Neither he nor Lebron is a consistent shooter and they are both better while driving to the basket. I never thought they would be at their best together. I keep hearing that Wade is hurt and will probably need surgery in the offseason. A gimpy Wade and Bosh is the difference in this series right now
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#187
#187
Wade was never a great jump shooter, but he isn't the same player he used to be, which means he has to (or tends to) rely more on jumpers.
 
#188
#188
LeBron always starts a game shooting jumpers, just to see if it's there or not. Wade is the same. Neither is going to consistently beat you doing that but both have the ability to break a defense down off the dribble.

It appears Wade is hurt, it's the only explanation I can really phathom.

Remember against Indiana what the Heat did to get him going? He was moving without the ball, they set off ball screens which is something they never do ( which is astonishing ) and he and James got easy baskets.

They're gonna have to do that in this series cause going full blown isolation offense when adversity hits is a recipe for disaster against a team as good as the Thunder.
 
#189
#189
Kobe was not a great jump shooter. Jordan had a bad jumpshot to begin with. This is sort of the natural arc for this kind of player -- you start out doing most of your damage driving with the basketball, because you can get to the rim whenever you want. Then as you lose a half a step, you improve your jumpshot and once you can step back, you're actually a better scorer than you were when you could drive the ball a little better. That's a critical point in a player's career; compare Jordan, who added the jumper and went on to become immortal, with Julius Erving, who could never really make his jump shot anything to worry about and who faded instead.

Wade obviously hasn't added the jumpshot either. Although I guess he thinks he has.
 
#191
#191
Vercingetorix said:
Kobe was not a great jump shooter. Jordan had a bad jumpshot to begin with. This is sort of the natural arc for this kind of player -- you start out doing most of your damage driving with the basketball, because you can get to the rim whenever you want. Then as you lose a half a step, you improve your jumpshot and once you can step back, you're actually a better scorer than you were when you could drive the ball a little better. That's a critical point in a player's career; compare Jordan, who added the jumper and went on to become immortal, with Julius Erving, who could never really make his jump shot anything to worry about and who faded instead.

Wade obviously hasn't added the jumpshot either. Although I guess he thinks he has.
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Very true. It is the natural progression. Mark Jackson said it best, father time is undefeated.

If he hasn't developed it now, he never will. I feel the same way for James, although he is the far superior athlete and will continue to able to drive to the rim at anytime he so chooses for years to come.

It's a major, major problem for the Heat. Their offense is predicated on those two to break the defense down off the dribble and either finsh or create for others, at this point it is only Janes who can do that.

There are ways for the Heat to win this series and it will be the most interesting aspect of the series for me to see if they actually make the proper adjustments offensively and defensively to do so.
 
#192
#192
GahLee said:
Very true. It is the natural progression. Mark Jackson said it best, father time is undefeated.

If he hasn't developed it now, he never will. I feel the same way for James, although he is the far superior athlete and will continue to able to drive to the rim at anytime he so chooses for years to come.

It's a major, major problem for the Heat. Their offense is predicated on those two to break the defense down off the dribble and either finsh or create for others, at this point it is only Janes who can do that.

There are ways for the Heat to win this series and it will be the most interesting aspect of the series for me to see if they actually make the proper adjustments offensively and defensively to do so.
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Jordan's jumper was still sketchy at LeBron's age, maybe even sketchier than LeBron's is now. I don't know if LeBron has the competitive drive to spend all summer in an empty gym to significantly improve his though.

I don't know how the Heat can get around the fact that LeBron is the only guy on the team who can guard Durant, but he's also the only guy on the team who can guard Westbrook.
 
#193
#193
Vercingetorix said:
Jordan's jumper was still sketchy at LeBron's age, maybe even sketchier than LeBron's is now. I don't know if LeBron has the competitive drive to spend all summer in an empty gym to significantly improve his though.

I don't know how the Heat can get around the fact that LeBron is the only guy on the team who can guard Durant, but he's also the only guy on the team who can guard Westbrook.
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It's an easy choice, you put him on Durant, Westbrook has the ability to shoot his team completely out of a game, Durant, not so much.

If I'm Miami I put LeBron on Durant and pressure Westbrook as soon as he gets the ball, once the defense is set I would play back and allow him to shoot jumpers and funnel him into the defense on drives and hope that he turn the ball over more than he did in game one.

Jordan's jumper and post game became a work of art after his first retirement, he was smart enough and determined enough to make it work. LeBron doesn't have the same drive as Jordan but then again who has or ever will in the NBA? It's not a knock on James as much as it is a homage to Jordan.

While I believe without a hint of doubt that James is the best basketball player alive regardless of the outcome of the finals, he remains the absolute most frustrating athlete to watch that I can ever remember.

When he wants to get to the rim he does so and it's mind boggling to watch a freak athlete like him settle for anything less than a contested 8 foot shot.
 
#194
#194
GahLee said:
It's an easy choice, you put him on Durant, Westbrook has the ability to shoot his team completely out of a game, Durant, not so much.

If I'm Miami I put LeBron on Durant and pressure Westbrook as soon as he gets the ball, once the defense is set I would play back and allow him to shoot jumpers and funnel him into the defense on drives and hope that he turn the ball over more than he did in game one.

Jordan's jumper and post game became a work of art after his first retirement, he was smart enough and determined enough to make it work. LeBron doesn't have the same drive as Jordan but then again who has or ever will in the NBA? It's not a knock on James as much as it is a homage to Jordan.

While I believe without a hint of doubt that James is the best basketball player alive regardless of the outcome of the finals, he remains the absolute most frustrating athlete to watch that I can ever remember.

When he wants to get to the rim he does so and it's mind boggling to watch a freak athlete like him settle for anything less than a contested 8 foot shot.
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Kobe added a jumper. Maybe LeBron won't ever be Jordan, but he sure as hell ought to be better than Kobe.

But that's for the offseason. Right now he can get to the rim literally any time he has the ball. He should almost never shoot the outside shot and, on this team, he should rarely even pass.

I get what you say about LeBron being frustrating. I got to watch Jordan's whole career from UNC to the Wizards and, although I rooted against him more often than I rooted for him, it was a privilege to get to watch it unfold. I feel like we as sports fans ought to be getting more of that from LeBron. He should be the second-best player that anybody under the age of 50 has ever seen [1] and he just flat out isn't getting it done.

Jordan didn't start relying on the step-back jumper until he couldn't get to the rim whenever he wanted anymore. It's almost like LeBron only remembers that part of Jordan's career so he's fast-forwarding to that point before he needs to.


[1] (I say under than 50 to get Russell and Wilt out of the picture)
 
#195
#195
Vercingetorix said:
Kobe added a jumper. Maybe LeBron won't ever be Jordan, but he sure as hell ought to be better than Kobe.

But that's for the offseason. Right now he can get to the rim literally any time he has the ball. He should almost never shoot the outside shot and, on this team, he should rarely even pass.

I get what you say about LeBron being frustrating. I got to watch Jordan's whole career from UNC to the Wizards and, although I rooted against him more often than I rooted for him, it was a privilege to get to watch it unfold. I feel like we as sports fans ought to be getting more of that from LeBron. He should be the second-best player that anybody under the age of 50 has ever seen [1] and he just flat out isn't getting it done.

Jordan didn't start relying on the step-back jumper until he couldn't get to the rim whenever he wanted anymore. It's almost like LeBron only remembers that part of Jordan's career so he's fast-forwarding to that point before he needs to.


[1] (I say under than 50 to get Russell and Wilt out of the picture)
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Not passing goes against who he is. Basketball more than any other sport ( I believe ) displays a players personality in the field of play moreso than any other sport. He is unselfish to fault almost.

No man on this entire Earth can keep him from getting to the rim on a consistent basis and yet you see him settle for jumpers just cause thats what the defense offers. They're offering it for a reason.

I've been a fan of LeBron since he was in high school ( we are almost the same age ) but I've always felt that he made life more
difficullt on himself on the court. He thinks too
much. Game 6 against the Celtics he was in full blown zombie mode and that result and production is completely unreasonable to expect from anyone but that mentality isn't.

He doesn't have the " f&@k everyone, I'm the greatest player alive and not a soul can stop me" gene. He just doesn't. He is the type of player who can dominate the game in every aspect and still look like he left something on the court.

It's something to marvel at, whether you hate him or like him.
 
#196
#196
GahLee said:
He doesn't have the " f&@k everyone, I'm the greatest player alive and not a soul can stop me" gene. He just doesn't. He is the type of player who can dominate the game in every aspect and still look like he left something on the court.

It's something to marvel at, whether you hate him or like him.
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This wasn't something that a basketball player was even supposed to have until ESPN got hold of the last bit of Michael Jordan's career, spread it retroactively over the rest of his career, and then made Hero Ball a yardstick that everyone is supposed to live up to. You read Adrian Wojiaerakajanaski's columns, basketball is a constant test of onions between one guy and another. One is the alpha dog and one turns his nuts up. It's bullshiat. Apparently none of these people ever watched Magic Johnson play.

The "I am the greatest player alive and no one can stop me" gene has been a net negative for Kobe Bryant's teams. You still see vestiges of it in Wade, and holy $deity he sucks now. It hasn't really worked for anybody other than Jordan. But now apparently that's the standard.

Maybe Durant has it. I need to see him guarded by somebody other than Wade in the Finals to believe it though.
 
#197
#197
Vercingetorix said:
The biggest problem with Miami isn't that they need a point guard or a big man, as badly as they need both. The biggest problem is that Wade is a shadow of what he used to be. I don't know if he's hurt or just prematurely old or both, but he's just awful now. LeBron apparently chained himself to a sinking ship.

I didn't really watch the Heaters play much this year until the playoffs, and that's been the most astonishing thing to me. How bad Wade is. He can't hit a jumper to save his life, yet he keeps heaving them up over and over and over.
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That's why they trade Mario Chalmers and Bosh for Steve Nash and Gortat from the suns. Nash has 3-4 years left according to him, and Gortat is a pretty decent big man.

Wade is killing the Heat. It's time he realizes it's not his team anymore.
 
#199
#199
I don't necessarily agree with the "I'm the greatest player alive" thing either, but Lebron is missing something that the great players have had over the last 30 years. I was watching the Dream Team Documentary last night and just the competitive nature of all of those guys, I feel like that's what Lebron is missing; especially the competitiveness between Magic and Jordan. Those 2 guys respected the heck out of each other, but they wanted nothing more than to beat the crap out of each other on the floor. Also was true with Barkley and Malone on that team.

Lebron is the most talented player in the league hands down. Him only having 3 MVPs is a joke. But you can see that he's missing that competitive fire. We saw it in Game 6 vs. Boston, but he doesn't bring that every night.
 
#200
#200
riley-rings.jpg


I think it's time for this guy to start coaching again.
 
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